Shootings - Page 13




 
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Shootings
 
July 23rd, 2018  
Capt Frogman
 
 
Shootings
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Absolute nonsense, I proved to you those figures were false
You didn't and haven't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Again your arrogance and ignorance is showing through, were you at the shooting to be able to judge them, no you wasnt. Of course you will defend your colleagues.
No, but I just happen to know the process, policies and procedures involved in both the courts and police firearms usage.

[quote=BritinAfrica;706864]Yes he ruled out unlawful killing, the jury ruled that the killing was not lawful which brought an open verdict, thereby preventing the police shooters from being prosecuted. Not one armed copper has ever been brought to justice for killing

Why does someone need to be prosecuted because someone died?

"Sir Michael said a verdict of unlawful killing could only be considered if jurors could be sure a very serious crime, such as murder or manslaughter, had been committed.
He said these factors did “not allow” him to offer unlawful killing as a possible verdict."

It seems pretty clear to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Yet again BS, everyone of those is a police shooting. The heading gives it away:-
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United Kingdom
It says KILLINGS not shootings. You can kill someone without shooting them. Seriously, are you really as thick as pig sh*t?

Edson Da Costa 21 June 2017, Beckton, London - NOT A SHOOTING

Olaseni Lewis 3 September 2010, London- NOT A SHOOTING

Ian Tomlinson 1 April 2009, London - NOT A SHOOTING

Sean Rigg 21 August 2008, Brixton, London - NOT A SHOOTING

How silly did you feel now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
You say and I quote ""You do realise that not all of those deaths listed are police shootings?"" Yet in the next breath you say "" you'll find that most of those shot was because they were brandishing a weapon or had stabbed/killed someone.""
Yes, because MOST of them were shot so therefore not ALL of them were shot.

You've got your facts wrong, not me. How awkward for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Are held accountable? thats b******te and you know it, as I keep proving to you not one armed copper has been brought to justice for killing someone. Civilians have proven to be safer with firearms then the so called trained police
Yes they are held accountable. Anytime a police firearm is discharged, it is independently investigated by the IPCC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
No I havent faced a suicide bomber yet you ignore the fact that I defended lives by NOT shooting someone, unlike trigger happy police.
Did you have a gun pointed at you?

The police in the UK aren't trigger happy. They only discharged firearms 10 times in 16,000 incidents.

In your link, people were shot for pointing a weapon at the police or were not compliant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Where shall we go next regarding British police?
I'm not interested in discussing it further with you.
July 23rd, 2018  
Capt Frogman
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica


That proves nothing this is a government report. Apart from that it fails to list the shootings and the reason behind them. Again you are talking absolute rubbish.
Why is it rubbish? If that's the figures then that's the figures. If they don't suit your agenda then thats not my fault. You talk bollocks and then look stupid when the facts are produced.

69 deaths in 28 years. Yeah, trigger happy police eh.

Fatal Police Shootings (England & Wales) 1990-date
Year Total
2018 1
2017 6
2016 4
2015 3
2014 1
2013 0
2012 1
2011 2
2010 1
2009 2
2008 3
2007 5
2006 1
2005 6
2004 2
2003 2
2002 2
2001 4
2000 2
1999 3
1998 2
1997 0
1996 2
1995 2
1994 1
1993 3
1992 3
1991 3
1990 2
Total: 69

Source: INQUEST casework and monitoring.

INQUEST’s figures are derived from our monitoring and casework and are independent of those produced by the Home Office and other government agencies.
July 23rd, 2018  
Capt Frogman
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Thank goodness for that.
I agree. Thankfully we're not a country of gun toting nutcases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Now you're an expert on American policing?

Why not? You're an expert on British armed policing.
--
Shootings
July 23rd, 2018  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
You didn't and haven't.
Yes I did, you hate to admit it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
No, but I just happen to know the process, policies and procedures involved in both the courts and police firearms usage.
Thats why the IPCC is being replaced because of incompetence.

Yes he ruled out unlawful killing, the jury ruled that the killing was not lawful which brought an open verdict, thereby preventing the police shooters from being prosecuted. Not one armed copper has ever been brought to justice for killing[.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
Why does someone need to be prosecuted because someone died?
If it is excessive force which the police are fond of these days. Remember the news paper seller who was attacked and killed by a copper, who's record of violence with arrests was kept quiet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
"Sir Michael said a verdict of unlawful killing could only be considered if jurors could be sure a very serious crime, such as murder or manslaughter, had been committed.
He said these factors did “not allow” him to offer unlawful killing as a possible verdict."

It seems pretty clear to me.
By reading the evidence in depth there is proof that excessive force was used, CCTV went missing, one copper lied, it goes on and on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
It says KILLINGS not shootings. You can kill someone without shooting them. Seriously, are you really as thick as pig sh*t?

Edson Da Costa 21 June 2017, Beckton, London - NOT A SHOOTING

Olaseni Lewis 3 September 2010, London- NOT A SHOOTING

Ian Tomlinson 1 April 2009, London - NOT A SHOOTING

Sean Rigg 21 August 2008, Brixton, London - NOT A SHOOTING

How silly did you feel now?
Is that the best you've got numbnut FOUR non shootings. You really are grasping at straws


Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
"Yes they are held accountable. Anytime a police firearm is discharged, it is independently investigated by the IPCC.
The IPCC is being replaced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
Did you have a gun pointed at you?

The police in the UK aren't trigger happy. They only discharged firearms 10 times in 16,000 incidents.

In your link, people were shot for pointing a weapon at the police or were not compliant.
UK cops 'trigger happy'
2005-09-18 12:56
London - British ex-special forces soldiers used to train the nation's armed police on Sunday condemned many of the officers as "trigger happy" and psychologically unsuitable to carry weapons.

The stinging criticism follows the shooting dead in London in July of an innocent Brazilian man by police who feared he was a suicide bomber.

Electrician Jean Charles de Menezes was shot a number of times in the head by anti-terrorist officers as he boarded a London subway train on July 22, when tensions in the capital were high in the aftermath of deadly bombings on July 7.

The case - which deeply shocked a nation where the vast majority of police never carry guns - is being investigated by Britain's Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC).

In a written statement handed to The Sunday Times newspaper, two former members of the British Army's elite Special Air Service (SAS) list their worries about the armed officers they trained.

The men said they believed the officers who killed De Menezes were likely to be among their former charges, although they could not be sure.

The ex-SAS soldiers said many of the police they trained in using guns, who they did not have the authority to fail, had poor skills and were not properly vetted as to their psychological suitability.

"When the tension starts to rise and the adrenaline is flowing, the 'red mist' seems to descend on armed police officers, who become very trigger happy," one soldier wrote in the statement.

"This has been shown time and again in training exercises."

The second soldier was equally scathing.

"We thought that police firearms officers were far more concerned with their personal image, dressing in body armour and looking 'gung ho', than their professional capabilities," he wrote.

"I'm not surprised at the number of mistakes over the years. There is no assessment of physical fitness, no psychological profiling, nothing. It's a major problem."

The statement described a training exercise in which police had to "rescue" hostages from an armed terrorist group which, unknown to them, had been told to surrender without a fight.

In the exercise the police "began firing at everything" although no one had moved.

"The response would have resulted in the unnecessary deaths of all the make-believe terrorists and the hostages alike. So much for the rule of minimum force," the statement said.

The police being trained would often pose for photographs with guns at the training college bar, the statement added.

Superintendent Phil Manns, the head of the CO19 armed unit of London's Metropolitan Police, rejected the criticism, saying his officers received "rigorous" training.

"The nature of the role done by a member of the SAS and a police officer who carries firearms is incredibly different and should not be compared," he added.


Seems the SAS whom I trust a lot more then you reports British police unfit to carry firearms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
I'm not interested in discussing it further with you.
Awww I miss our little fights making you look more stupid then you already are
July 23rd, 2018  
Capt Frogman
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Thats why the IPCC is being replaced because of incompetence.

Yes he ruled out unlawful killing, the jury ruled that the killing was not lawful which brought an open verdict, thereby preventing the police shooters from being prosecuted. Not one armed copper has ever been brought to justice for killing[.]

If it is excessive force which the police are fond of these days. Remember the news paper seller who was attacked and killed by a copper, who's record of violence with arrests was kept quiet.

By reading the evidence in depth there is proof that excessive force was used, CCTV went missing, one copper lied, it goes on and on.
Police officers have been charged numerous times for shooting someone dead and have gone on trial. Every time they have been found not guilty. Blame all the jurors if you don't like it. Or maybe they acted lawfully and you just can't accept it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Is that the best you've got numbnut FOUR non shootings. You really are grasping at straws
That's four more than you said there were.

As I've already posted, police firearms haven't been discharged more than 10 times in a year for the past 8 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
The IPCC is being replaced.
And?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
UK cops 'trigger happy'
2005-09-18 12:56
London - British ex-special forces soldiers used to train the nation's armed police on Sunday condemned many of the officers as "trigger happy" and psychologically unsuitable to carry weapons.

The stinging criticism follows the shooting dead in London in July of an innocent Brazilian man by police who feared he was a suicide bomber.

Electrician Jean Charles de Menezes was shot a number of times in the head by anti-terrorist officers as he boarded a London subway train on July 22, when tensions in the capital were high in the aftermath of deadly bombings on July 7.

The case - which deeply shocked a nation where the vast majority of police never carry guns - is being investigated by Britain's Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC).

In a written statement handed to The Sunday Times newspaper, two former members of the British Army's elite Special Air Service (SAS) list their worries about the armed officers they trained.

The men said they believed the officers who killed De Menezes were likely to be among their former charges, although they could not be sure.

The ex-SAS soldiers said many of the police they trained in using guns, who they did not have the authority to fail, had poor skills and were not properly vetted as to their psychological suitability.

"When the tension starts to rise and the adrenaline is flowing, the 'red mist' seems to descend on armed police officers, who become very trigger happy," one soldier wrote in the statement.

"This has been shown time and again in training exercises."

The second soldier was equally scathing.

"We thought that police firearms officers were far more concerned with their personal image, dressing in body armour and looking 'gung ho', than their professional capabilities," he wrote.

"I'm not surprised at the number of mistakes over the years. There is no assessment of physical fitness, no psychological profiling, nothing. It's a major problem."

The statement described a training exercise in which police had to "rescue" hostages from an armed terrorist group which, unknown to them, had been told to surrender without a fight.

In the exercise the police "began firing at everything" although no one had moved.

"The response would have resulted in the unnecessary deaths of all the make-believe terrorists and the hostages alike. So much for the rule of minimum force," the statement said.

The police being trained would often pose for photographs with guns at the training college bar, the statement added.

Superintendent Phil Manns, the head of the CO19 armed unit of London's Metropolitan Police, rejected the criticism, saying his officers received "rigorous" training.

"The nature of the role done by a member of the SAS and a police officer who carries firearms is incredibly different and should not be compared," he added.


Seems the SAS whom I trust a lot more then you reports British police unfit to carry firearms
How the military use firearms is completely the opposite way that the police use them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Awww I miss our little fights
You need to get out more.
July 23rd, 2018  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
Police officers have been charged numerous times for shooting someone dead and have gone on trial. Every time they have been found not guilty. Blame all the jurors if you don't like it. Or maybe they acted lawfully and you just can't accept it.
Yet not one has been convicted, that to me is suspicious

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
PThat's four more than you said there were.
Now that is grasping at straws

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
As I've already posted, police firearms haven't been discharged more than 10 times in a year for the past 8 years.
Thats ten times too many for trigger happy coppers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
And?
Goes to show its flawed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
How the military use firearms is completely the opposite way that the police use them.
What blast away at anything that moves???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
You need to get out more.
Awww thats nice of you, are we friends now??

I thought you wasnt going to debate with me anymore.
July 23rd, 2018  
Capt Frogman
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Yet not one has been convicted, that to me is suspicious
Or it proves that the police officers have all acted lawfully?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Now that is grasping at straws
Says the man who was adamant earlier that they were all shot......

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Thats ten times too many for trigger happy coppers
How can they be trigger happy when they've only discharged their firearms 10 times out of 16,000 incidents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Goes to show its flawed
The IPCC has ended the careers of many police officers when they've done wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
What blast away at anything that moves???
That's how the military operates yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Awww thats nice of you, are we friends now??

I thought you wasnt going to debate with me anymore.
Friends?

I was taught to be respectful to the elderly.
July 23rd, 2018  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by -- Dusty
Froggy, over here in the states it's bad. I know a few places where I can be totally unarmed, fully cooperative, hands in the air, and every cop that gets "there" to the call out site, EVERY COP will have their weapon drawn on me. In fact. that is exactly what happened when I reported a theft from my truck.
If cops are so damned trigger happy, they need to find a different job. Some of them are looking for an excuse to kill someone.



But is that an indication of something drastically wrong in society when police forces have become too afraid to trust anyone including the victim?


I think since 9/11 police forces have moved from maintenance of law and order to counter terrorism organisations and I am not entirely sure many of your average police recruits are capable psychologically to fill that role.
July 23rd, 2018  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
Or it proves that the police officers have all acted lawfully?
It proves no such thing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
Says the man who was adamant earlier that they were all shot......
4 were stabbed? Now you really are clutching at straws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
How can they be trigger happy when they've only discharged their firearms 10 times out of 16,000 incidents?
It doesnt matter how many times a firearm is discharged, The ex-SAS soldiers said many of the police they trained in using guns, who they did not have the authority to fail, had poor skills and were not properly vetted as to their psychological suitability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
The IPCC has ended the careers of many police officers when they've done wrong.
It needs to end a few more. "When the tension starts to rise and the adrenaline is flowing, the 'red mist' seems to descend on armed police officers, who become very trigger happy," one soldier wrote in the statement. The police being trained would often pose for photographs with guns at the training college bar, the statement added.

"This has been shown time and again in training exercises."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
That's how the military operates yes.
"We thought that police firearms officers were far more concerned with their personal image, dressing in body armour and looking 'gung ho', than their professional capabilities," he wrote.

"I'm not surprised at the number of mistakes over the years. There is no assessment of physical fitness, no psychological profiling, nothing. It's a major problem."

The statement described a training exercise in which police had to "rescue" hostages from an armed terrorist group which, unknown to them, had been told to surrender without a fight.

In the exercise the police "began firing at everything" although no one had moved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Frogman
Friends?

I was taught to be respectful to the elderly.
I was taught to trust a policeman.......YEAH RIGHT, as far as I could throw one.
July 23rd, 2018  
Capt Frogman
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
It doesnt matter how many times a firearm is discharged, The ex-SAS soldiers said many of the police they trained in using guns, who they did not have the authority to fail, had poor skills and were not properly vetted as to their psychological suitability.

It needs to end a few more. "When the tension starts to rise and the adrenaline is flowing, the 'red mist' seems to descend on armed police officers, who become very trigger happy," one soldier wrote in the statement. The police being trained would often pose for photographs with guns at the training college bar, the statement added.

"This has been shown time and again in training exercises."

"We thought that police firearms officers were far more concerned with their personal image, dressing in body armour and looking 'gung ho', than their professional capabilities," he wrote.

"I'm not surprised at the number of mistakes over the years. There is no assessment of physical fitness, no psychological profiling, nothing. It's a major problem."

The statement described a training exercise in which police had to "rescue" hostages from an armed terrorist group which, unknown to them, had been told to surrender without a fight.

In the exercise the police "began firing at everything" although no one had moved.
Potential police firearms officers undergo psychological assessments and profiling before being allowed to join. So what you've posted above is false.

Are you 100% certain that the people saying this were actually ex-SAS? They don't sound like it to me.

Why do I think that? Because of this:

"The police being trained would often pose for photographs with guns at the training college bar, the statement added"

Anyone who has been on any military base, will know that weapons are not taken into any mess bar. So why would some claiming to be ex-SAS say something that simply doesn't happen?
 


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