Separation of Church and State - Page 4




 
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Separation of Church and State
 
June 4th, 2005  
behemoth79
 
 
Separation of Church and State
all of the examples above either list national laws or events that took place, not the teachings of Jesus Christ.
June 4th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 
Irregardless, those are the commands of Yahweh who with jesus and the holy spirit is one god, one being.

Of course you probobly are trying to motion to the two-covenants theory of interperating the bible which states, essentially, that the old testament is merely a backstory for Jesus Christ's laws. Oddly enough, though, the people who ignore the teachings about genocide under this theory are very angry when the equally discounted Ten Commandments, which should be ignored along with those genocide lines, where removed from the courthouse. Then, of course, you are left with the beatitudes, or Jesus' teachings. The main problem with this loveley scenario is that the Christianity of Jesus is far to hard a path for most people to accept, (give away all your money, fast in the desert etc.) and since you are speaking to me on a computer I assume you do not follow that lifestyle.

So we are left with mainstream Christianity which essentially seeks to ignore the parts of the bible they don't like (such as those ugly ugly genocide things, let me just turn my blind eye... oh there, gone!) and believe what they want to believe (god damned gays, let's send em' all to hell at shotgun point!)

Of course, a Christian ruler could just as easily interpret the bible to say that Jesus is the ideal citizen and that Yahweh is the ideal ruler. The ideal citizen should give up all he has for yahweh (in this instance the ruler) and the ruler (me) should be, as yahweh's holy representative on earth, able to bash babies against walls like in Jehrico.

But that is wrong! That's not my religion! Yes, and that's why we have a very firm line between church&state.
June 4th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whispering Death
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
This is kind of offtopic, but I have to say that there are only two hemispheres: North and south.
No, there are east and west hemispheres also seperated by the Prime Meridian
I know this is VERY offtopic:

The Western Hemisphere contains The Americas and nearby islands. The terminology is meant to serve as an analogy with the natural geographic division of the world into a Northern and Southern Hemisphere. However, it is more a geopolitical rather than a geographical term, and refers mostly to the governments and nations that are located in the region; there is no physically-based boundary on the planet that actually separates the Western Hemisphere from the rest of the world, such as the equator which is defined by the rotation of the earth and which thus separates the Northern and Southern hemispheres. (Some suggest that the eastern and western hemispheres are divided by the Prime Meridian and the 180 line of Longitude. This would mean that parts of Europe, Africa, and Asia belong in the Western Hemisphere.) Neither is there a way to determine which of two hemispheres (wherever one draws the line between them) is the "western" one, since "western" is a relative direction. The area commonly called Western Hemisphere is western only relative to an observer in Europe or Africa, and so the term is considered eurocentric.
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Separation of Church and State
June 4th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 
They arn't used as much as northern/southern hemispheres but there ARE eastern/western hemispheres also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_hemisphere

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_hemisphere
June 4th, 2005  
Molly Pitcher
 
People would be alot better off if they lived under only one rule - The Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Take that as a guiding principle in how to live your life and you won't have to worry about the seperation of church and state or whether or not your religious beliefs are being considered.

Unfortunately, it will never happen universally. Somebody will always want something for nothing and is willing to take advantage of others to get it. Still, it doesn't mean you can't try to be that way yourself.
June 6th, 2005  
gladius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whispering Death
Irregardless, those are the commands of Yahweh who with jesus and the holy spirit is one god, one being.

Of course you probobly are trying to motion to the two-covenants theory of interperating the bible which states, essentially, that the old testament is merely a backstory for Jesus Christ's laws. Oddly enough, though, the people who ignore the teachings about genocide under this theory are very angry when the equally discounted Ten Commandments, which should be ignored along with those genocide lines, where removed from the courthouse. Then, of course, you are left with the beatitudes, or Jesus' teachings. The main problem with this loveley scenario is that the Christianity of Jesus is far to hard a path for most people to accept, (give away all your money, fast in the desert etc.) and since you are speaking to me on a computer I assume you do not follow that lifestyle.

So we are left with mainstream Christianity which essentially seeks to ignore the parts of the bible they don't like (such as those ugly ugly genocide things, let me just turn my blind eye... oh there, gone!) and believe what they want to believe (god damned gays, let's send em' all to h**l at shotgun point!)

Of course, a Christian ruler could just as easily interpret the bible to say that Jesus is the ideal citizen and that Yahweh is the ideal ruler. The ideal citizen should give up all he has for yahweh (in this instance the ruler) and the ruler (me) should be, as yahweh's holy representative on earth, able to bash babies against walls like in Jehrico.

But that is wrong! That's not my religion! Yes, and that's why we have a very firm line between church&state.
Where do you get this stuff. This is even more out there than saying all the founding fathers were deists. This is a totally wrong concept of Christainity. Why do you think Christians are not killing gays or bashing babies like you say, there must be a reason for that. Here it is in a nutshell:

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


Most of all the Old Testament was realized through Christ, and Christian must strive to live towards Christ truth and grace.

Thats why it wrong for Christains today to massacre populations, shoot gays with shotguns, and bash babbies. Most if not all Christians will be against anyone who tries to do this.

As far as the 10 commandments go, it is still relevant today because the Old Testament are spiritual methaphores for New Testament faith and struggles, ect.

Not only that, those commandments are some of the very few laws that come from the old testament that Jesus and also the Apostles mention for Christians to follow. The rest you don't have to follow because of Christ grace.

So NO, Christians arent ignoring one part to follow another. Far from it.

All parts are kept in mind. In fact the very examples you use is a very good example why the US should not forget its Christian roots.

Quote:
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.(Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
As brutal as you think those commands were, it was necesary for the survival of the newly formed nation of Isralites during ancient times.

Because of the Biblical laws (not just the ones mentioned above) the Isralites became strong as a nation, and were at the height of power during king Solomon's reign. They were the wealthiest and one of the most powerful regional powers and possibly on the verge of empire within two or three more kings had they stayed the course. However towards the end of Solomon's reign some of those commands listed above were starting to be violated, some by Solomon himself.

They started to worship foreign idols, chief among them was Molech, which required people to sacrifice children into fire. The worship of these gods changed their individual attitudes and thus their whole national character. This set off a whole chain of events where the original Bibical laws were no longer followed. The laws which kept them strong as a people were soon disregarded. This resulted in a downhill slide for them. Within one or two generations they were a divided people with two kingdoms, until later they were eventually conquered by foriegn invader, and they all became slaves.

Of the two kingdoms Judah and Israel, the smaller one Judah lasted considerable longer only because of a series of kings who did away with idol worship and restored the Biblical laws which made them strong again for a time, until again another series of kings did away with it again and re-introduced idol worship, which weakened them again until eventual conquest.

As far as a New Testament metaphore, the Christain foundation of the founding fathers which brought us here has kept us strong. They knew the same lesson from the Old Testament. If we forget it then it will lead to our fall, if you want proof all you have to do is look at Europe, they wont last more than 50 to a 100 years or even less.
June 7th, 2005  
behemoth79
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whispering Death
Quote:
Originally Posted by behemoth79
no where in the Bible does it say to burn and pillage a city and rape and kill its nonbelieving inhabitants. Rather it instructs to love nonbelievers and show them kindness and lead them back to God through love not violence.
You might want to try reading the bible before you say that.

Commit Genocide

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)
you might want to read the whole story of the fall of Jericho and not take out the part that fits your argument and leave out the rest. This was not an example of God giving a law to all of Israel to kill all non belivers. This was one example of God punishing Jericho. Jericho had fallen from God's way and was punished for doing so. Trumpets did not bring down the walls of Jericho, God did.

" 2 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men. " (Joshua 6:2 NIV)

Jericho sinned and was handed over to Israel. And to make sure Jericho would never exist again,Joshua swore:
" 26 At that time Joshua pronounced this solemn oath: "Cursed before the LORD is the man who undertakes to rebuild this city, Jericho:
"At the cost of his firstborn son
will he lay its foundations;
at the cost of his youngest
will he set up its gates."

27 So the LORD was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land.
(Joshua 6:26-27 NIV)
June 7th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 
But it's okay to slaughter children as long as god tells you to do that. And our country needs to be run according to god.
June 7th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 
Gladius, Israel's power had much more to do with the geopolitics of their time instead of god. That is, of course, unless you think America's power was is because god likes us, and Britain's power in the 1800s was because god liked them best, and Prussia's power in the 1700s was because they where God's favorite and France's power in the 1600s was because god really liked them at that time and China's power before the 1600s was because god was so pleased with buddhism. And if god loved Israel enough to let her have almost 3 kings before she began to crumble, imagine how much god loved Persia and how extrordinarily much god loved Alexander the Great and his sexual trists with his young hopolites.

Israel came to its peak because of a power vaccum that they where able to fill. It only lasted for 2 kings and then the real powers of the time reconstituted themselves in that theater and proceded to bludgen the hell out of her. Actually in the 2nd civil war, Israel invaded Judea to force Judea to fight the Asyrians but Jerusalem asked the Asyrians to save them and that's how Israel was conquered by the Asyrians. That would essentially have been like the South getting Brittain to conquer the North during our civil war.

When you strip away the religion, Israel was a real state. It only came to power because the big powers where preocupied and then broke in 1/2 and proceeded to get the crap kicked out of her by everyone and their dog over the next few hundred years. Hardly the kind of nation we'd want to model ourselves after.
June 7th, 2005  
gladius
 
It isn't about who God likes or doesn't like.

Christian principles foster, honesty, hard work, and family values. All 3 necesary for building of a strong nation.

Look at Europe for example their liberal beliefs doesn't foster family values, thus they have a shrinking population, how is this shrinking population going to support a larger and larger old population, and a continuing economy in the future, it cant.

The reason Israel broke in half like I said is because they had forgeten those laws which made them strong in the first place. Had they remained united there would be no Judah to ask Assyria to help conquer Israel, instead they would probably been able to hold off Assyria, if not conquer them themselves, had they remained united and strong like they were supposed to.

The real reason Israel was a up state, like I said before, is because they had forgoten their Bilbical laws along with its values. Before that, when those laws were in place they were a strong nation.

You keep giving examples trying to illustrate why Israel was so messed up, when the very examples you give are the same reasons not to forget the Christian principles this nation was founded under. Israel forgot those Biblical laws thats why they got the crap beat out of them.

Besides, those Christian foundations are what took us here today, Atheism and Liberalism did not make this country. So far the only example Atheism has given us is the failed state of the Soviet Union.