maybe some of you are misunderstanding me, especially Whipsering Death. I am in no way saying that there should be a state sponsered religion. reading my last post would reveal that. however, i am saying that the separation has gone too far. In the past 30 years America has become a morally degenerate society.

Crime rate has increased exponentially, so have divorce rates and violence. Pornography and sexual perversion have become mainstream. Homosexuals are looked upon more favorably than Christians are. Would America not be better of if it incorporated Judeo-Christian ethics and morals into its laws?

A Chinese scientist said (not a direct quote but close enough) "In China we are free to question Darwin but not the government. In America you can question the government but not Darwin." Interesting, no?

Originally Posted by behemoth79

maybe some of you are misunderstanding me, especially Whipsering Death. I am in no way saying that there should be a state sponsered religion. reading my last post would reveal that. however, i am saying that the separation has gone too far. In the past 30 years America has become a morally degenerate society.

I think you are over looking that fact that a large proportion of the most immoral and degenerate acts in recorded history have been carried out in the name of religion.

Crime rate has increased exponentially, so have divorce rates and violence. Pornography and sexual perversion have become mainstream. Homosexuals are looked upon more favorably than Christians are. Would America not be better of if it incorporated Judeo-Christian ethics and morals into its laws?

In my opinion the alleged degredation of morality has come from a failure in the maintenence of discipline nothing else, you already have incorporated Judeo-Christian ethics and morals into your laws just take a look at the comparisson between the "10 commandments" and most nations laws. The big problem is not in a governments lack of desire to impliment these rules but in its desire to enforce these rules to there fullest extent.

A Chinese scientist said (not a direct quote but close enough) "In China we are free to question Darwin but not the government. In America you can question the government but not Darwin." Interesting, no?

I disagree entirely people are more than free to discuss Darwins theories as well as creationism what is wrong is the desire to ignore Darwinism in favour of creationism and vice versa as both have a place in the education system.

I've said more than my piece and I encourage all not say more than theirs.

Remember that the impact of one person's internet forum writing on a human's psyche is virtually nill. Most people have very strong heald convictions on the nature of religion and its role in gov't. There is nothing that can be said by me or anyone else to convince myself or any other forum member to change their opinions on such a limited impact medium.

This is especially true in the current world society we live in where it seems fundamentalism has taken strong root in people's psyche, from Christian fundamentalism to Islamic fundamintalism to atheist fundamentalism.

I could throw out facts figures and argumentation at Gladius till my fingers fell off and he could do the same to me and neither of us would be able to budge the other. Not because of some post-modernist philosophy like we both hold equally valid truth but rather because the psychological persuasive impact of this medium is not strong enough to overcome other, more intense, levels of learning and understanding.

This is basically a call for American low-church christians and european atheists to not slice eachother's throats over a pre-determined stalemate, because that is exactly where this seems like it's going.

In a way I kinda agree with some of your sentiments here.

As far the European Atheist go, I believe European society and democracy as a whole won't last more than fifty to a hundred years, they will fall to either assimilation or armed invasion, largely due to said beliefs.
America on the other hand has a good chance of going past this if it sticks to its Christian roots and doesn't go the way of Europe. This is why I am for this even from a purely logical standpoint.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I think you are over looking that fact that a large proportion of the most immoral and degenerate acts in recorded history have been carried out in the name of religion.

This is partially true, but then again you lack historical perspective.

Without the foundation of Christianity, which is the basis for all our laws and government we wouldn't have Western Civilization and our democracy as we have today.

Not mention at least twice in history (maybe more) Christianity saved Western Civilization from total anihilation.

Also the 2 biggest mass murderers in world history were Atheist, Mao (20 million killed), and Stalin (20 to 40 million killed). So historically speaking Atheism is just as bad if not worse. Not to mention this happen fairly recently in the 20th century.

Beside this dicussion is NOT about religion as a whole (I could care less about that), it is about acknowledging the basic Christian beliefs that founding fathers of the US and basicly our modern democracy stood by, and used to form what is in place today.

I disagree entirely people are more than free to discuss Darwins theories as well as creationism what is wrong is the desire to ignore Darwinism in favour of creationism and vice versa as both have a place in the education system.

Are you even living in reality? When was the last time creationism was taught in the public schools. When the theory of evolution (which by the way is still only a theory) is always taught in sciences clases, when you can't even teach creationism in most public shcools, its illegal.

Originally Posted by behemoth79

maybe some of you are misunderstanding me, especially Whipsering Death. I am in no way saying that there should be a state sponsered religion. reading my last post would reveal that. however, i am saying that the separation has gone too far. In the past 30 years America has become a morally degenerate society.

I agree, people are completely misunderstading this and making comparisons to Iran. Not even close.

the foundation for America's government was layed out thousands of years before the western hemisphere was even considered

This is kind of offtopic, but I have to say that there are only two hemispheres: North and south.

Here in Europe religion and politics have separed science 1789, great idea!

Originally Posted by staurofilakes

This is kind of offtopic, but I have to say that there are only two hemispheres: North and south.

No, there are east and west hemispheres also seperated by the Prime Meridian

Originally Posted by MontyB

I think you are over looking that fact that a large proportion of the most immoral and degenerate acts in recorded history have been carried out in the name of religion.

i agree 100% that some of the most "immoral and degenerate acts in recorded history have been carried out in the name of religion." While it is true that they were carried out in the name of religion, they were not carried out according to the doctrine of said religion.

The crusades were carried in the name of Christianity. However, no where in the Bible does it say to burn and pillage a city and rape and kill its nonbelieving inhabitants. Rather it instructs to love nonbelievers and show them kindness and lead them back to God through love not violence.

Many terrorists are claiming their acts are in the name of Islam. I have not read the Koran but i highly doubt that a religion so close to Christianity would condone such acts.

Originally Posted by behemoth79

A Chinese scientist said (not a direct quote but close enough) "In China we are free to question Darwin but not the government. In America you can question the government but not Darwin." Interesting, no?

People question Darwin all the time. Though I think they're being extremely silly.
Sorry Chinese scientist guy. You can't question the government, though you can question Darwin, but in the US, you can question both. Sure you'd look like a complete idiot if you said Darwin was wrong but you could do it and the worst you'd get is people laughing at you.

Originally Posted by behemoth79

no where in the Bible does it say to burn and pillage a city and rape and kill its nonbelieving inhabitants. Rather it instructs to love nonbelievers and show them kindness and lead them back to God through love not violence.

You might want to try reading the bible before you say that.

Commit Genocide

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Kill Non-Believers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.(Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

There are many more, read the thing and you'll find em' yourself.

*double post*