Russia or NATO without the US, Which is stronger?

hamidreza

Active member
At the new conditions in the Europe, especially NATO expansion to the east, new NATO air-defense systems around Russia and unstable conditions in Georgia and Ukraine, Is there any ability in European countries to defend themselves without the US help if a war occurs between them and Russia? In my opinion, most of Russia weapons, conventional and unconventional, are more developed and better than Europe countries. Even some of their weapons are better than US, for example missiles and air-defense systems.
And if it is true, can’t we consider this as a weak point for European and doesn’t it make the European countries’ safety depended to the US help while the US's safety isn’t depended to the European?
There can be also a comparison between NATO with US and Shanghai Accord.
 
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In my opinion, most of Russia weapons, conventional and unconventional, are more developed and better than Europe countries. Even some of their weapons are better than US, for example missiles and air-defense systems.

Based on what?
 
At the new conditions in the Europe, especially NATO expansion to the east, new NATO air-defense systems around Russia and unstable conditions in Georgia and Ukraine, Is there any ability in European countries to defend themselves without the US help if a war occurs between them and Russia? In my opinion, most of Russia weapons, conventional and unconventional, are more developed and better than Europe countries. Even some of their weapons are better than US, for example missiles and air-defense systems.
And if it is true, can’t we consider this as a weak point for European and doesn’t it make the European countries’ safety depended to the US help while the US's safety isn’t depended to the European?
There can be also a comparison between NATO with US and Shanghai Accord.

NATO countries would have every chance in the world to defend themselves against a Russian invasion primarily due to the logistics of invading the west are not in Russia's favour.

As the old Soviet Union it was a possibility as its jumping off point would have been the German/Polish border but now Russia would need to battle its way through most of Eastern Europe and that in itself would be a battle given the popularity of Russia in those states, lets face it glaring problems were exposed during the Russian invasion of Georgia.

Personally I doubt Russia could take Poland let alone the rest of Europe.

However I would also suggest that you have failed to grasp one small aspect, the security of the USA does depend on the security of Europe and vice versa so the chances of Europe being left to its fate are incredibly slim in my opinion.
 
Russia has a large military but Russia is large. Largest area for any nation on earth, nearly twice the size of the USA. But, Russia has less than half the population of the USA to cover all that land.
The USA shares a land border with 2 countries, and both Canada, and Mexico do not seek the USA harm.
Russia shares a land border with 14 countries, many do not like Russia, even a little bit.

The closest neighbors the USA has that may want the USA taken out is Cuba, off the coast of Florida, and Russia, off the coast of Alaska.
The USA will not worry about Cuba attacking.

If Russia pulled the trigger on the west Russia would have to contend with its other neighbors attacking Russia. It would be a mess, even without using nukes.
 
At the end of the Cold War, the Soviet Union had a total population of nearly 290 million, and a Gross National Product estimated at about $2.5 trillion. At that time, the United States had a total population of nearly 250 million, with a Gross Domestic Product of about $5.2 trillion. That is, the population of the United States was smaller than that of the Soviet Union, with an economy that was only twice that of the Soviet Union. Two decades later, Russia's population is about 140 million, with a GDP of about $1.3 trillion, while the population of the United States is over 300 million, with a GDP of $13 trillion. Today, the population of the United States is twice that of Russia, and the US economy is ten times as large.

That is to say, with considerably more advantageous population and economic resources, the Soviet Union was destroyed by the effort to remain a peer competitor with the United States during the Cold War. Presently, with relatively more modest resources, it is beyond the capacity of the Russian Federation to mount any sustained challenge to the United States or NATO beyond the immediate area of the former Soviet Union.
 
Der Alte
Based on what?
When I do a comparison between Russian and European weapons, I feel that the Russian weapons are better than European weapons.
For example the Russian Air force is second in the world and utilizes the most advanced airplanes. For example I can’t find any European airplane deals with Su-T50, although it hasn’t been mass produced. And the other airplanes such as Su-37, 34,33and MiG 29, 31 and 35 are better than European airplanes such as Rafale, EF or Mirage 2000 or at least are in the same position.
They have most developed combat helicopters (Mi28 and kamov 50, 52) and they are better than European helicopters and are almost as dangerous as the US combat helicopters.
The Russian Air-defense systems and missiles are great and are best in the world. Just remember S-400 or S-500 and Alexander.
They have a large and strong armored force. T90, 94 are good examples. Although the European Tanks such as leopard and Leclerc are very advanced.
Their Navy is not as developed as European Navy except that their Submarines which I think are better than even the US submarines. For Example Victor class submarines are masterpiece.
Also their Electronic technology and drone are their weak points. Although the European countries don’t have advanced drone. In this part the US is first and Israel is second.
Russia is one country with one army while the European countries consist of several countries with several army. So the management of a war will be easier for Russia.
And the last thing, Russia has the largest nukes stockpile even more than US. I think if they blow up their nukes in their land, the whole of the world will be destroyed.
It is my opinion, maybe it is wrong.
 
MontyB:
NATO countries would have every chance in the world to defend themselves against a Russian invasion primarily due to the logistics of invading the west are not in Russia's favour.

As the old Soviet Union it was a possibility as its jumping off point would have been the German/Polish border but now Russia would need to battle its way through most of Eastern Europe and that in itself would be a battle given the popularity of Russia in those states, lets face it glaring problems were exposed during the Russian invasion of Georgia.

Personally I doubt Russia could take Poland let alone the rest of Europe.
I just want to have a comparison between their armies. For example "which army is stronger, Pakistan or the UK?" and "could the UK occupy Pakistan lonely as regard the long distance between them?" are two question with two different answers.

MontyB:
However I would also suggest that you have failed to grasp one small aspect, the security of the USA does depend on the security of Europe and vice versa so the chances of Europe being left to its fate are incredibly slim in my opinion.
Do you think the Europe has an independence policy in the world? I don’t think. They are completely depended on the US while the US isn’t. They can’t remove any crisis even in the Europe. The Balkans crisis is a good example. Without US help could they solve it?
Could they dare to attack Afghanistan and Iraq and manage their war without the US help if a terrorist attack would occur in Europe? I don’t think. But the US could do it lonely.
In fact they are subsidiary player and the US is main player. The US needs them when they want to use” The international community” phrase and then they say quickly “yes we are the international community”. The international community is care about the Syria, The international community is care about the Iran’s nuclear activities, the international community is care about the elections in Russia, the international community is care about the freedom in china and so on… They support Israel not because they are care about Israel’s security but because they scare from the US, the Israel’s godfather.
In fact the excessive reliance to the US makes them lazy and I think they are losing their influence in the world gradually especially when the new powers in the world like china and India are emerging.
 
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Der Alte:
At the end of the Cold War, the Soviet Union had a total population of nearly 290 million, and a Gross National Product estimated at about $2.5 trillion. At that time, the United States had a total population of nearly 250 million, with a Gross Domestic Product of about $5.2 trillion. That is, the population of the United States was smaller than that of the Soviet Union, with an economy that was only twice that of the Soviet Union. Two decades later, Russia's population is about 140 million, with a GDP of about $1.3 trillion, while the population of the United States is over 300 million, with a GDP of $13 trillion. Today, the population of the United States is twice that of Russia, and the US economy is ten times as large.

That is to say, with considerably more advantageous population and economic resources, the Soviet Union was destroyed by the effort to remain a peer competitor with the United States during the Cold War. Presently, with relatively more modest resources, it is beyond the capacity of the Russian Federation to mount any sustained challenge to the United States or NATO beyond the immediate area of the former Soviet Union.
I said a war between Russia and NATO without the US help but you are comparing between the US and Russia.
 
Gator:
Russia has a large military but Russia is large. Largest area for any nation on earth, nearly twice the size of the USA. But, Russia has less than half the population of the USA to cover all that land.
The USA shares a land border with 2 countries, and both Canada, and Mexico do not seek the USA harm.
Russia shares a land border with 14 countries, many do not like Russia, even a little bit.

The closest neighbors the USA has that may want the USA taken out is Cuba, off the coast of Florida, and Russia, off the coast of Alaska.
The USA will not worry about Cuba attacking.

If Russia pulled the trigger on the west Russia would have to contend with its other neighbors attacking Russia. It would be a mess, even without using nukes.
The population is not all. If it was the India and china would be the powerful power in the world. Even more than US.
 
I would argue that you are living in a long past era.
You seem to be pressing the idea that because Europe doesn't maintain huge armies they are ripe for invasion but you are over looking the point that with the demise of the Soviet Union the threat to Western Europe from a conventional invasion all but disappeared.
 
The better question is: How big a threat are we to them? Their military is a hollow shell of what it once was, and so they have become reactionary. Their only offensive weapon in a conventional military sense is the destruction of the world. So they bloviate. This from a country with such poor health and such high alcoholism that it will be dead in a few decades if it's not careful.
 
When I do a comparison between Russian and European weapons, I feel that the Russian weapons are better than European weapons.
For example the Russian Air force is second in the world and utilizes the most advanced airplanes. For example I can’t find any European airplane deals with Su-T50, although it hasn’t been mass produced. And the other airplanes such as Su-37, 34,33and MiG 29, 31 and 35 are better than European airplanes such as Rafale, EF or Mirage 2000 or at least are in the same position.
They have most developed combat helicopters (Mi28 and kamov 50, 52) and they are better than European helicopters and are almost as dangerous as the US combat helicopters.
The Russian Air-defense systems and missiles are great and are best in the world. Just remember S-400 or S-500 and Alexander.
They have a large and strong armored force. T90, 94 are good examples. Although the European Tanks such as leopard and Leclerc are very advanced.
Their Navy is not as developed as European Navy except that their Submarines which I think are better than even the US submarines. For Example Victor class submarines are masterpiece.
Also their Electronic technology and drone are their weak points. Although the European countries don’t have advanced drone. In this part the US is first and Israel is second.
Russia is one country with one army while the European countries consist of several countries with several army. So the management of a war will be easier for Russia.
And the last thing, Russia has the largest nukes stockpile even more than US. I think if they blow up their nukes in their land, the whole of the world will be destroyed.
It is my opinion, maybe it is wrong.
Maybe you're just misinformed.
Let's take a look at their submarines.

Russian subs were never all they were cracked up to be. The loss of a Russian sub showed the kinds of problems they faced. You could see the old military culture of avoiding blame showing up almost immediately, with the initial attempts to blame the loss of the sub on a collision with an American sub. It took nearly a year, and constant pressure from Putin, for the Navy to finally admit that it had been lost due to explosion of the fuel in a torpedo on board (which is the kind of thing that happens in a Navy which doesn't do the maintenance it really needs).

Like every other kind of military equipment that the Soviets built, the Navy has always cut corners to save money. Their surface ships were incredibly formidable looking, with their superstructures bristling with guns and other weapons, but that disguised serious problems, most important of which was that they didn't actually carry much ammunition. One of our destroyers, with much less impressive looking upper decks, would still be firing away several hours after theirs had exhausted their entire magazines. In fact, in nearly every way the real Soviet policy about their military was that it was far more important to look formidable than to actually be formidable. It was, in fact, a gigantic bluff.

Their nuclear-powered submarines were legendary, because of the significant death rate among sailors who served on them. ("How can you tell a Soviet submarine sailor? They glow in the dark.") Men were cheap and expendable (a general attitude in Russia predating the Soviet Union, going back to before Peter the Great). So they skimped on shielding on their reactors, among other things. Admiral Rickover once was given a tour of a Soviet nuclear submarine, and happened to be carrying a film dosimeter. It turned out later that he'd been exposed to more radiation during his brief tour of that sub than he had in total in all the years he spent commanding America's nuclear submarine program.

I've spent almost my whole life trying to keep an eye on what the Russians did and did not do, and let me assure you that we in the West have a very clear picture of what potential Russia has today.

At this point, the Russian military is, for all practical purposes, useless in most regards. The Russian descendant of the Strategic Rocket Forces continues and for obvious reasons is still worthy of respect. But most of the conventional force that they're often credited with having is in practice not real, because its equipment is useless for lack of spare parts and vital maintenance that the military no longer can afford, and the men can't be relied on. They have a few units which actually can operate, a few divisions, a few squadrons, a few ships, but their effective conventional military power now is probably much less than that of the UK, as well as being far less versatile.
 
Der Alte:
But most of the conventional force that they're often credited with having is in practice not real, because its equipment is useless for lack of spare parts and vital maintenance that the military no longer can afford, and the men can't be relied on. They have a few units which actually can operate, a few divisions, a few squadrons, a few ships, but their effective conventional military power now is probably much less than that of the UK, as well as being far less versatile.
They spent about 72 billion dollars previous year for their army. more than UK and France while their cost is less than them. So how they have just a few units which actually can operate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
 
They spent about 72 billion dollars previous year for their army. more than UK and France while their cost is less than them. So how they have just a few units which actually can operate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
Because Russia has an ambitious plan to upgrade its army over the next ten years, planning to spend US$650 billion on the project.

First and foremost, Russian defense will focus on the development of strategic nuclear weapons, construction of over 100 military vessels for Russian Navy, including construction of four originally French-made Mistral-class amphibious assault ships, and the introduction into the Air Force of over 1,000 helicopters and 600 military planes, including fifth generation PAK-FA fighter. Most of the military hardware will be equipped with next-generation weaponry.

For the first time ever, Russia is planning to buy military equipment from NATO-member countries – two Mistral helicopter carriers will be bought in France (with two more licensed to be built in Russia), as well as samples of armored vehicles from Italy and elements of personal combat systems also from France.
 
When I do a comparison between Russian and European weapons, I feel that the Russian weapons are better than European weapons.
For example the Russian Air force is second in the world and utilizes the most advanced airplanes. For example I can’t find any European airplane deals with Su-T50, although it hasn’t been mass produced. And the other airplanes such as Su-37, 34,33and MiG 29, 31 and 35 are better than European airplanes such as Rafale, EF or Mirage 2000 or at least are in the same position.
They have most developed combat helicopters (Mi28 and kamov 50, 52) and they are better than European helicopters and are almost as dangerous as the US combat helicopters.
The Russian Air-defense systems and missiles are great and are best in the world. Just remember S-400 or S-500 and Alexander.
They have a large and strong armored force. T90, 94 are good examples. Although the European Tanks such as leopard and Leclerc are very advanced.
Their Navy is not as developed as European Navy except that their Submarines which I think are better than even the US submarines. For Example Victor class submarines are masterpiece.
Also their Electronic technology and drone are their weak points. Although the European countries don’t have advanced drone. In this part the US is first and Israel is second.
Russia is one country with one army while the European countries consist of several countries with several army. So the management of a war will be easier for Russia.
And the last thing, Russia has the largest nukes stockpile even more than US. I think if they blow up their nukes in their land, the whole of the world will be destroyed.
It is my opinion, maybe it is wrong.

All the Russian weapons you mention (exept the MiG-29 which has a very poor combat record) are not battle proven. They look good on paper.

Past Russian weapons also had a poor combat record. (Korea, Vietnam, Israel-Arab war, Balkan, Iraq)
 
The population is not all. If it was the India and china would be the powerful power in the world. Even more than US.

Boots on the ground are what is important.

China stopped the United States Military dead in its tracks in the Korean War.
The USA could not kill Chinese fast enough to turn the tide of the battle.
The USA had to back up and regroup.

Because of China there is still a north and south Korea to this day.

China would be more powerful than the USA, if the USA butted up against China along a border the same size as the border with Canada or Mexico.

China has transportation issues, not manpower issues.
Moving Troops long distance to the would-be war zone is a major stumbling block for China, albeit one that China hopes to have rectified one day. The USA is working to deal with China when that day comes.
 
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All the Russian weapons you mention (exept the MiG-29 which has a very poor combat record) are not battle proven. They look good on paper.

Past Russian weapons also had a poor combat record. (Korea, Vietnam, Israel-Arab war, Balkan, Iraq)

I disagree most Russian weaponry is proven, on every battlefield since 1948 the smoldering wrecks of Russian equipment can be seen as proof that it doesn't work.

Q: How do you spot a Russian stealth sub?
A: Follow the radioactive cloud until you can see the smoke.
 
After the fall of the iron curtain German pilots trained with western pilots against F-15, F-16 and F-18s. Those exercises showed that the MiG-29 was superior in a dog fight. Big part of this dog fight superiority was due to the fact that the German pilots had many hours behind them as fighter pilots, often 3-4 times as many as their opponents. But in larger scale exercises (many aircraft on both sides) western tactics & command & control of air war were proven to be much better and kill-ratio turned against MiGs.

In one-on-one duel they were superior- I don’t remember exactly what the kill-ratio was, but it was at least 1:3 or even more.
 
Originally Posted by VDKMS
All the Russian weapons you mention (exept the MiG-29 which has a very poor combat record) are not battle proven. They look good on paper.

Past Russian weapons also had a poor combat record. (Korea, Vietnam, Israel-Arab war, Balkan, Iraq)
So you cant trust to F-35 because it hasn't been tested in a real battle.
 
Gator:
Boots on the ground are what is important.

China stopped the United States Military dead in its tracks in the Korean War.
The USA could not kill Chinese fast enough to turn the tide of the battle.
The USA had to back up and regroup.

Because of China there is still a north and south Korea to this day.

China would be more powerful than the USA, if the USA butted up against China along a border the same size as the border with Canada or Mexico.

China has transportation issues, not manpower issues.
Moving Troops long distance to the would-be war zone is a major stumbling block for China, albeit one that China hopes to have rectified one day. The USA is working to deal with China when that day comes.
China has a good potential to be the first power in the world in future maybe 20 years later. And except that their large population and area, I think they don't have any dark point in their behavior with other countries and it makes them reliable. As the US who was 70 years ago. It is why the US politician are care about it. They want to move their all aircraft carriers to Asia around China. Leon Panetta said it a few days ago in a conference in Singapore.
 
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