Rubber bullets, pros, cons, and other




 
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June 26th, 2011  
Prapor
 
 

Topic: Rubber bullets, pros, cons, and other


In Russia, there is a enormous rise in ownership of so-called 'traumatic' weapons. Non-lethal, on paper (quite a few people, actually, have died as a result of their use). Classic, basic 'traumatic' guns shoot either a rubber bullet, or, 'hard ammo', steel bullet or ball coated in rubber.

There is a lot of choice, as many brands, sizes, etc, are available

There are some guns, like PM 'Makarych', top right corner, that can shoot both rubber and also tear gas bullets. Next to that, to the left, is the 'Ratnik' revolver, which also fires tear gas or steel-rubber ammo. Bottom row, you have a TT 'Leader', made to look like regular, combat TT-33, except it fires rubber bullets. Next to it is a 'traumatic' version of the Nagant revolver. On top of the Nagant, you have the 'Osa' pistol, four barreled, it firs four kinds of ammunition: rubber-steel (renowned for effectiveness, it is believed that the force of a 'Osa' steel rubber-coated round at close range is comparable to a close-up knockout punch of a professional heavyweight boxer), tear gas, 'shock' rounds (rubber bullet with electrodes, like Taser, but better ), and flash-bang round: blinds, deafens and completely disorients an opponent for about 15 minutes. My wife owns one of these. You have also a Izh-79 tear gas pistol. Top left corner is one of the new automatic 'traumat' guns, for people who may need more than 2, 3 or 4 shots to bring down an attacker. Very effective against multiple opponents too. Like an Uzi, but non-lethal, supposedly

These guns are becoming an everyday item for many people here


You see them all the time
Because people believe they are non-lethal, yet still scare others, they whip them out for whatever reason, in any conflict, that is the darker side of things.
I've heard of two drivers in the parking of 'Evropeiski' shopping center, in Moscow, who argued over a spot, each jumped out of their car drawing his own 'travmat', blazing, so to speak. Half a dozen indentations on each car, one driver's window broken, and three innocent bystanders injured (and both of the 'gunfighters', one shot in the leg, the other in the shoulder).

We from the South own a lot of those. In Southern oblasts/provinces, and republics, lots of people own real weapons, not rubber toys


When we move to the Central areas, to the big cities, to 'civilization', we are used to having a weapon, and traumatic is what is available, so we buy that and lots of it

Contrary to the myth, we don't own more traumatic guns than the Central people, we just know how to use guns, period, better. That is why when there is a fight between locals in Moscow somewhere and guys from the South, the Southerners always come out on top, and the locals - on a stretcher. And they dislike us for this, of course lol

But, yes, traumat is popular across all spectrums of the population. Some, many people in fact, now custom decorate theirs


But, yes, there have been some stupid cases. Like, driver gets into confrontation with snowplow operator on MKAD highway, in winter, ends up shooting him in the leg with a traumat, the rubber bullet hits an artery, man bleeds to death, 'gunman' goes to prison for 5 years. I guess most disturbing case was in Irkutsk, where there was a mass brawls between boys from two different schools, and one of the boys used a traumatic pistol he stole from his father. Four opposing fighters ended up in hospital. The shooter's family is fined 20,000 rubles, and the boys is sent home where his father at least promised to 'whip his arse so that he cannot sit down for a month'

I myself, when in the capital, carry a plain old Margo (Makarov), steel rubber coated rounds. Reliable, that's all I need. Only for self-defense, I don't wave it around like some idiot 'tough guys'...

As the situation is now, you don't need a permit to own or carry one of these. they are trying to change that now. I think that is a very good idea.
June 29th, 2011  
Yossarian
 
 
If I ever get to visit Russia,

Trust me expect no worries from my behavior, after seeing these so called "truamatic" weapons, I think like all other firearms I know which side Id rather be on.

Those things must be painful, and considering what types of ballistic damage they may cause, any occuring fatality from their application is most likely bleeding to death....

Allot slower death than any traditional lead based method.

I don't care if I am wrong or right,

Just stating I would not want to end as the wrong target at the wrong time! (nervous laughter)

Best to stick to behavior I know, like AVIODING a conflict.
June 30th, 2011  
Prapor
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
If I ever get to visit Russia,

Trust me expect no worries from my behavior, after seeing these so called "truamatic" weapons, I think like all other firearms I know which side Id rather be on.

Those things must be painful, and considering what types of ballistic damage they may cause, any occuring fatality from their application is most likely bleeding to death....

Allot slower death than any traditional lead based method.

I don't care if I am wrong or right,

Just stating I would not want to end as the wrong target at the wrong time! (nervous laughter)

Best to stick to behavior I know, like AVIODING a conflict.
lol Yes, I've been shot with a travmat once, it's not nice... [Was an accident, friend of mine had too much to drink at his wedding, started firing his 'Leader' in the air, like Cossacks always do at their weddings, one bullet somehow ricochetted off the ceiling and, with my unique luck, ended up hitting me in the side. Hurt like hell. I had a bruise for a few weeks... Oh, well. **** happens, as you Americans say
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October 27th, 2011  
Shturmwehr
 
 
The man on a last photo have a SAIGA-MK-03? Or this is just a toy?
I know almost ALL about rubber-fireing gun which you call "Travatica". Only last-GEN of this weapon type is good enought to protect yourself from any crime.
October 29th, 2011  
wayword son
 
i am glad to have been born an American, where i have the right to own guns,(and i own several)

as an American gun owner, i was taught by my mentor, that a gun is always loaded unless you are looking at the empty chamber a gun is never pointed at anything that one does not intend to destroy.

legally, in the us. the traumatic guns you describe would be firearms, if the projectile is driven by a charge of gunpowder (with the exclusion of a tear gas powder gun, as it does not fire a projectile).

true, the traumatic gun is intentionally made to be a weak firearm, but a weak firearm, under the control of someone with a weak mind, can still be lethal.
i note that in some country’s, (and some states in the US) even though you do not have the legal right to own guns, (without a permit) criminals by nature, do not and will not follow the law, and will obtain firearms, and other deadly weapons regardless of what any government does.

apparently, when a lawful loophole is available in Russia (the traumatic gun) lawful citizens take advantage of it to feel safe, unfortunately, due to a "label" of non-lethal, a few morons in Russia do not respect these lethal weapons as i was taught to respect mine.

(note, the Russian citizens who post on this site are not in the category of moron, and i for one would feel perfectly comfortable next to any one of them on a firing line, posibly with the exception of prapor's cossack friend)
February 29th, 2012  
Jay
 
 
"non-lethal" weapons are at the core an oxymoron. these weapon systems are used to DECREASE the chance of a lethal blow, but in the right hands even a stick of butter is a lethal weapon. Having at least a somewhat controlled distribution of these weapons in my eyes would be a great asset, these are no child's bb guns these are law enforcement and self defense tools that have become overly common and overly used for the wrong purpose.
November 11th, 2013  
{¤nn¤r
 
Rubber bullets aren't child's play...my dad (when he was involved in Enviro-Watch) was deployed from helicopter. Outside a small town. I think there was some riot there or something. His team was armed with rubber bullets and some guy jumped out of the helicopter when it had landed and accidentally shot a rubber bullet into his foot. The mission lasted a few seconds for him as he was then dragged back into the chopper and rushed to hospital.
November 11th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Read about Israeli "Rubber Bullets". They are actually have a rubber coated metal core,... how can they be any "less lethal" than any other type of Ball ammunition?
Quote:
Israeli rubber bullets are produced in two main types. The older type, the standard rubber bullet, is a steel sphere coated in a thin layer of rubber, weighing 14 grams, while the new improved rubber bullet, introduced in 1989, is a rubber coated metal cylinder 1.7 cm in diameter, weighing 15.4 grams.[15] These bullets are fired from a special adapter attached to the muzzle of a rifle, similar to those used to launch rifle grenades. The rubber bullets are loaded into the front of the adapter, and propelled with a blank cartridge.[citation needed] Of the lethal injuries from this projectile, most are suffered to the head. [15]
There is obviously a third variety, as there is a video showing a blindfolded Palestinian detainee being deliberately shot through the thigh with a rubber bullet, the weapon has no muzzle adaptor.
Israeli War criminals Deliberately Shoot Palestinian Detainee




November 11th, 2013  
Hutchie
 
If you ever pulled one of those in the USA on somebody, you'd probably be dead. You never know who has the real thing, could be a 90 year old lady packing a Glock. I just try to treat people nice. If they break my door down at night, they will face lead, not rubber.
January 13th, 2014  
VDKMS
 
Rubber bullets are definitely less harmful than live ammo. But even a water cannon can kill you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Read about Israeli "Rubber Bullets". They are actually have a rubber coated metal core,... how can they be any "less lethal" than any other type of Ball ammunition?
There is obviously a third variety, as there is a video showing a blindfolded Palestinian detainee being deliberately shot through the thigh with a rubber bullet, the weapon has no muzzle adaptor.
Israeli War criminals Deliberately Shoot Palestinian Detainee




This "video" needs some explanation:

I sugest you download it and view it frame by frame
shot is fired at frame 607 (00:24.280)
guy with white shirt scares up at frame 610 (00:24.440)
"demonsrtator" lift his left foot at frame 613 (00:24.520)
video blurs at frame 615 (00:24.600)
video sharp again at frame 645 (00:24.960)
video blurs again and veers to the left at frame 627 (00:25.080)
last blurred frame at 631 (00:25.240)
next frame "demonstrator" on the ground at 632 (00:25.280)
the "demonstrator's" unharmed foot is seen in frame 633 (00:25.320)

the way the soldier holds the weapon when fired he can impossible hit the "demonstrator's" foot which B’Tselem said was a rubber coated metal bullet. Under the Israeli forces’ rules of engagement, rubber bullets are to be used only from a distance of 50 metres or more, to avoid piercing the skin. This was from 1 meter and his foot did not show any signs of injury. Like always with such videos (and photos) it is shot in close up style and important pieces are missing. You do not see the "demonstrator" fall.
Pallywood again?
They propably fired to scare him without hitting the "victim".