Roman legions drill; any info?

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Del Boy

Active member
Rome ; some ancient military manuals in Latin refer to some sort of close drill.

This may be what Frederick the Great was thinking when he introduced marching in step to Europe in the 18th century.

Before that there apparently was only the natural tendency of groups of walkers to fall into step in an informal way.

Can anyone throw any light on this subject; did the Romans march to sinister, dexter - sinister, dexter or to songs?

I understand that there is no clear evidence that they marched in step at all.
 
Hmmm I have a hard time believing that they couldn't figure out that if you march in step, you can march formations tighter and keep the rows and columns even so the commander can always know how many people there are in a given formation.
 
Le- I don't believe it. And the City of London is the site of the Roman Garrison! Some of the cockneys are descendants.
 
They did Drill.

One example is the Testudo (Tortoise) formation. This was a very difficult formation a master. I have read histories that it took a Roman Cohort (a modern day company) a full year to train on the maneuver before they could master it, as it is nowhere near as easy as it looks.
 
mmarsh said:
They did Drill.

One example is the Testudo (Tortoise) formation. This was a very difficult formation a master. I have read histories that it took a Roman Cohort (a modern day company) a full year to train on the maneuver before they could master it, as it is nowhere near as easy as it looks.
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The Testudo was a formation which a company of men, which was actually a century of men which was 80 men not 100 as many people believe. The Testudo used 12 man columns to bring their shields over the top in case arrows or spears were directed in that direction. the other legionaries brought there shields up around the sides, back and front to cover those points. The testudo could move in any direction, its commander wanted to advance towards. But please realize, there were a good 20 to 30 other formations they used. They were the originators of modern warfare. Their discipline was exemplary and no one on earth could come close to it at the time.
 
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Del Boy said:
Rome ; some ancient military manuals in Latin refer to some sort of close drill.

This may be what Frederick the Great was thinking when he introduced marching in step to Europe in the 18th century.

Before that there apparently was only the natural tendency of groups of walkers to fall into step in an informal way.

Can anyone throw any light on this subject; did the Romans march to sinister, dexter - sinister, dexter or to songs?

I understand that there is no clear evidence that they marched in step at all.
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I believe the Romans drilled a lot more in the Post Maurian Roman army. Del, I'm not sure if they kept in step such as a modern army would but I have gut feeling they did. But it is something I am quite interested in and I will try and find out. All it takes, is some good Research. They did use their infantry in lines, usually four to eight, depending on the size of the enemy army. They would fight at the front until exhaustion problems. Then the second line moved to the front. Then the third, fourth and so on, and this proccess kept each fighting line in relatively good shape. They also used a medium sized spear and a rectangular shield. In spite of what the movies show, the gladius was used only when you lost your spear, which was looked down upon.
 
papasha40 said:
In spite of what the movies show, the gladius was used only when you lost your spear, which was looked down upon.
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I always laugh when the movies, (mainly Hollywood), show the gladius being used as a slashing weapon as opposed to its historic use as a close-quarter stabbing weapon.............. ;)
 
mocco said:
I always laugh when the movies, (mainly Hollywood), show the gladius being used as a slashing weapon as opposed to its historic use as a close-quarter stabbing weapon.............. ;)
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Yes it was predominatly a close quarter stabbing weapon. Though I'm sure some soldiers hacked away with it. Especially those who had panicked.
 
Del Boy said:
Rome ; some ancient military manuals in Latin refer to some sort of close drill.

This may be what Frederick the Great was thinking when he introduced marching in step to Europe in the 18th century.

Before that there apparently was only the natural tendency of groups of walkers to fall into step in an informal way.

Can anyone throw any light on this subject; did the Romans march to sinister, dexter - sinister, dexter or to songs?

I understand that there is no clear evidence that they marched in step at all.
Click to expand...


I would recommend a book called...
The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare.
By Philip Sabin, Hans van Wees, Michael Whitby
Published by Cambridge University Press, 2007
ISBN 0521782732, 9780521782739

It is an interesting read and will answer some of your questions.
 
Even the Germanic did drill before battle.
As for the romans they had to drill very hard to preserve their strength fighting in formation, as very good re-enacted in the series Rome (1st episode) the romans had a tight formation with every soldier holding the man in front. When first line got tired they used a shield bash on command to get some space- in this moment the second man would pull the first behind himself so that he now was first row. There was enough space in between though so that the soldiers who just faught could move to the rear. Always a fresh line in front and due to the big shields and the stabbing from below and from the sides (not from above because second man was protecting this area with his shield) there was no way to break this formation easily.
The Germanics used the V that is commonly used by cavalry, though i doubt they could use it effectively because it needs a lot of training and germanic ppl had not many standing soldiers and no standing army, they only drilled after they had gathered for war- in any case there are no germanic sources left except archeological findings and what other nations saw and described...

Sorry for babbling- it's just such an interesting topic- i just had some seminars on the topic at the university for my studies focus on Ancient History.
 
This video from the season Rome comes very close to the latest historical research- at least compared to other videos... (violent content!)
As you see at the end it is very hard to stay in formation- only fresh reserve units could establish a new line of formation... in this episode there are some more good scenes, as i mentioned before episode 1 also shows roman formation fighting in a smaller frame.
Legion vs. Legion
 
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ROMANS USE OF SWORDS

Papasha40 said that the Romans only used their swords when they lost their spears. I am very interested to learn the source of this information, if Papasha or anyone else could oblige with a historical reference. Thank you.
 
Depending on the reforms, the consul/ commander. The marius mules drilled alot because they were a standing army, and in times of peace or inactive its important to stay in shape, and be capable of combat readiness.
The early republic relied on a militia levy, and in some cases had little less then a month drill together, and then went to the battle field ( 2nd punic war Italy for example) Some generals in the time period did drill alot though, Scipio Africanus for example.
 
I'm going to have say they must of drilled. You would never get such a well trained and organised army without drilling! Is there any evidence of drilling after the Roman period? You could look to see if drilling happened before and then after. You never know, you may discover drilling happening after the Roman period and this may suggest that the Roman's did it!
 
MontyB said:
I would recommend a book called...
The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare.
By Philip Sabin, Hans van Wees, Michael Whitby
Published by Cambridge University Press, 2007
ISBN 0521782732, 9780521782739

It is an interesting read and will answer some of your questions.
Click to expand...



Good one, read it, a bit dry but well worthwhile!

At WaT I am currently having a discussion on about when "planned" warfare starts and most ppl seem to think at those ages ppl just ran into each other swaying away with their swords, but there were sincere tacticians and strategists behind what we today read as mass slaughters, and very distinctive takes on "combined arms" takes not different from today (with different weapons systems, of cause).

Rattler
 
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Also try "in the name of Rome", it offers a look inside how consuls had the freedom to run there army in what ever fashion they wanted, including how hard depending on the general they were drilled, and how much experience they had. In the early republic the only thing they kept common and traditional was how they actually fought the battle, not how they trained. But in the early empire and late republic thats a different story and the book gives a good look at all those time periods
 
We know that the Lacaedaemonians/Spartiates/Spartans kept step with the help of a flute player and they preceded the Romans. That miserable (from a historical perspective) flick, 300, showed one of those flute players in the scene where the royal bodyguard was accompanying Leonidas to the rendezvous point with the Athenians.
 
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