Roe vs. Wade

[Del Boy]

Hi MM - please don't keep referring to it as a 'Church 'issue. That is irrelevant, come to it only as an issue for mankind. Don't see it as part of your opposition to any church or you retain the blindfold.

Abortion is the killing of babies, who have no choice in the matter. 18 years after an abortion, a woman can look around her table at her family and remember that another son or daughter should be sat there, an absent friend indeed. Every year the same - just as my wife does since we lost our sixth baby from miscarriage. Nobody but me recognises the little tear; even though we have five children and 11 grandchildren, she remembers and grieves silently. Very little to do with religious dogma, everything to do with truth and not being afraid to face it.

War pales into insignificence weighed against the devastation faced by continuing generations of our citizens.

Forget the anti-church agendas, forget denial of it as killing, no-one can claim the highground in any issue if they approve of abortion on principle.

Want CHOICE ? Fine, take the choice before conception. Easy. Other wise accept your lovely perfect new human as a blessing, with pride.

 

[pixiedustboo]

Want CHOICE ? Fine, take the choice before conception.

This is 100% how I feel

And mmarsh? If a fertilized egg was not there would be no birth. The moment of conception it is a baby - one cannot pick and choose when to decide it's a child. In my opinion.

(P.S. And as a second note, comparing abortion and the death penalty is asinine).

 

[A Can of Man]

Abortion is the killing of babies, who have no choice in the matter. 18 years after an abortion, a woman can look around her table at her family and remember that another son or daughter should be sat there, an absent friend indeed. Every year the same - just as my wife does since we lost our sixth baby from miscarriage. Nobody but me recognises the little tear; even though we have five children and 11 grandchildren, she remembers and grieves silently. Very little to do with religious dogma, everything to do with truth and not being afraid to face it.

Not everyone follows this logic and to others the opposite or a different point in pregnancy can seem perfectly logical. Don't forget that.
I personally believe that when a human egg is fertilized, you have a person in the making but it's something I can't prove and many people can't prove either. Until then, each to their own.

 

[Chief Bones]

Originally Posted by Del Boy

"Abortion is the killing of babies, who have no choice in the matter. 18 years after an abortion, a woman can look around her table at her family and remember that another son or daughter should be sat there, an absent friend indeed. Every year the same - just as my wife does since we lost our sixth baby from miscarriage. Nobody but me recognises the little tear; even though we have five children and 11 grandchildren, she remembers and grieves silently. Very little to do with religious dogma, everything to do with truth and not being afraid to face it."

I and my second wife lost a child, and while I can sympathise with you and know the pain of the loss, I disagree with a portion of the above statement. A handful of cells (the point at which MOST abortions are performed), is NOT the killing of a baby. It is ONLY a potential baby unless you bring religion into the mix by saying the soul was created at the moment of inception.

The reality of today's world, is the very real fact that many many unwanted children are brought into this world only to be abandoned or to suffer an even worse fate. I won't mention those fates but we all know what I am talking about. Whether we PERSONALLY would make the decision to abort an unwanted pregnancy is moot ... what is germane, is the fact that the option is open to women to make the decision for themselves. That is why Roe-v-Wade is important to American women.

 

[Del Boy]

Inception is the only the only point we have to measure whether what we have is a life or not. It just cannot be denied that in order to achieve an abortion a life has to be taken, otherwise that son or daughter would still be with us in all probability.

I can understand those who say - we know that the killing takes place but our needs are greater than the baby's, but I find it difficult to understand how, with all the medical evidence we have, it can be argued that a baby does not exist.

It is not necessarily a question of religious belief, if a church told me that I must accept the principle of abortion , I would oppose that position.

As a man I take the position that it is our duty as a civilisation to protect and defend our unborn children as well as the born, and that if we are not prepared to do both ( we do neither very well in my opinion) then we are in exactly the cycle of decadence that might well bring us down. In other words - are we worthy?

Forget religion for the sake of this argument, No-one can say that choice is not available; it is very simple, if you do not want a baby - do not concieve. If you concieve, face your responsibility. Do not call upon society to kill your child.

All the subsequent problems of care of our young should be given every assistance of course.

I am not against women at all, I love them, but I have to be pro-choice at conception and pro-life after that.

Abortion has largely become no more than contraception.

I wish I had not not been faced with this question here, i think I should try to make this my last effort, if I can.

 

[A Can of Man]

I don't approve of abortion being used like a contraception either... after all, who knows the person may be itself upon inception. I don't think so, but maybe.
But on the other hand sometimes abortion is the best option for everyone, including the fetus or cluster of cells depending on the stage of development.
Also, values don't necessarily have to be religious. Other cultural values can be just as powerful. That's why people who say "do away with religion" are idiots because even a political system can fill the vacuum quite comfortably. Basically you'd have to blow everyone's brains out.
So either way, I'm keeping an open mind and although I think abortion should not be taken lightly, it should not be illegal either.

 

[Del Boy]

I like the 'vacuum' point, and to a degree Islam is filling this at the present in many cases - but that's another matter altogether of course.

And of course I understand the degree question involved in this issue, but I would certainly like to see very early and clear definition as a minimum check.

And everyone surely admits that contraception in all its available form is no longer a difficult proposition. Certainly not difficult enough to carelessly cost a life.

Right -Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........................

 

[major liability]

If I had been aborted before my brain turned on, I wouldn't care, because I'd be a mass of cells without any mind to speak of. I simply can't see how you can say conception is the beginning of life. To me, it is the potential for life, but getting rid of it isn't killing, because the person hasn't been built or become conscious of its own existence yet. I'll probably take a lot of flames for this, but that's just the way I see it. It might help you understand my position if you knew I don't believe in the soul, only the mind. I don't think cells with the potential to become human beings are endowed with some mystical force that makes them just as important as a human being.

This is why I think that abortion should be out of the question once the fetus' brain starts working, unless the mother will be injured or killed by giving birth.

Edit: And yes, contraceptives are a much better option for birth control than abortion. Hell, with morning-after pills you really have no excuse these days, unless you live somewhere where they are inaccessible.

 

[mmarsh]

Hi MM - please don't keep referring to it as a 'Church 'issue. That is irrelevant, come to it only as an issue for mankind. Don't see it as part of your opposition to any church or you retain the blindfold.

Abortion is the killing of babies, who have no choice in the matter. 18 years after an abortion, a woman can look around her table at her family and remember that another son or daughter should be sat there, an absent friend indeed. Every year the same - just as my wife does since we lost our sixth baby from miscarriage. Nobody but me recognises the little tear; even though we have five children and 11 grandchildren, she remembers and grieves silently. Very little to do with religious dogma, everything to do with truth and not being afraid to face it.

War pales into insignificence weighed against the devastation faced by continuing generations of our citizens.

Forget the anti-church agendas, forget denial of it as killing, no-one can claim the highground in any issue if they approve of abortion on principle.

Want CHOICE ? Fine, take the choice before conception. Easy. Other wise accept your lovely perfect new human as a blessing, with pride.

Del Boy

I am sorry but its not irrelevant, things are different in the UK than in the USA. In the USA the majority of pro-life arguments come from religious groups who cite scripture in their literature as the reason for being against abortion. 'Thou shall not kill and all that'. Its no different than Muslim extremists telling why I shouldn't eat pork (because the Koran forbids it). In each case they are using THEIR God to impose THEIR values on me. So it is totally relevant to tell them to mind their own business, as I don't share their religious views.

I am sorry about your wifes miscarriage, I truly am. But that is no reason to impose your views on conception on others because you suffered a loss. Thats the point of being PRO-CHOICE, as the Other Guy pointed out its the right to Choose to carry a fetus to term or not. I am against any type of imposition ESPICIALLY on moral grounds.

As others pointed out the HIGHGROUND (morality) is a matter of personal opinion. In my view and most others abortion is permissable. That might not be your view, but it is mine.

And yes, contraception is better than abortion. But its not 100% effective. My ex got pregnant in just such a fashion.

And again you fail to mention a solution to all the unwanted babies that are abandoned each year by their parents. Its always those that have not been born rather than the babies that are already born.

 

[pixiedustboo]

the person hasn't been built or become conscious of its own existence yet. I'll probably take a lot of flames for this, but that's just the way I see it.

I don't think cells with the potential to become human beings are endowed with some mystical force that makes them just as important as a human being.

A baby isn't conscious of it's own existence yet, so lets quit bothering with partial birth abortion and just kill them when the mother gives birth naturally.

They ARE just as important as a human being. There would BE no baby if not for that moment of conception and those 'cells.'

Edit: And yes, contraceptives are a much better option for birth control than abortion. Hell, with morning-after pills you really have no excuse these days, unless you live somewhere where they are inaccessible.

Morning after pills are not a birth control and should not be used as such. I believe these should be hospital regulated and only given to women that are raped.

Morning after pills, "can't be bothered with keeping up on your birth control pills? Boyfriend doesn't want to wear a condom? Try us, we kill any chance of babies for you ladies that are lazy!"

 

[mmarsh]

Pixieboodust

Conception only happens when the sperm reaches the egg and fertilizes and thats about 3 days after intercourse, so whether you wear a condom or take the pill it really makes no difference.

Do you know how the morning after pill works? It slows the sperm down so that it doesn't reach the egg in time.

and again, we are not talking about a living baby but a mass of cells, its not even a fetus.

 

[MontyB]

They ARE just as important as a human being. There would BE no baby if not for that moment of conception and those 'cells.'

How can you validate this statement against this one:

Morning after pills are not a birth control and should not be used as such. I believe these should be hospital regulated and only given to women that are raped.

On one hand you are anti-abortion because its the killing of a defenseless humanbeing and yet given this circumstance you are all for killing the same defenseless humanbeing. Unless of course you believe that a baby as a result of rape is as guilty as the offender.

It seems to me that the pro-life side like to take the mother out of the equation from the moment of conception except in these cases where the mother apparently gets a say in the process.

As I said earlier I don't want to get into this discussion but I am intrigued by what is effectively a double standard.

 

[Del Boy]

Del Boy

"I am sorry about your wifes miscarriage, I truly am. But that is no reason to impose your views on conception on others because you suffered a loss. "


Hi MM - Thank you - but that was not the point. I was making the point that the loss of a baby, in fact, involves the removal of a son or daughter.

--------------------------------------------------



"And again you fail to mention a solution to all the unwanted babies that are abandoned each year by their parents. Its always those that have not been born rather than the babies that are already born."

"




I feel this is a different subject, but it would certainly not be to murder them.

And I am not imposing anything on anyone else - I was asked to give an opinion, was I not, and tried to do so although I had no wish to present such unpalatable truths. Also, I am very aware of the predicament this presents for those involved, but murder just cannot be the answer.

I do so object to continually being lumped as part of a political agenda - I have a mind of my own you know, and the last thing I wish to do is to offend those who do not share my view.

So let me try to say that I just cannot share the view that abortion as contraception is acceptable. Avoiding conception is another matter. I have no wish to stone anyone, far from it.

Now that is definitely the last from me, it is too important an issue.

 

[mmarsh]

Del Boy

One thing I have learned from listening to you is that the abortion issue is very different in Europe than in America. For example, you dont want it to be lumped as a political issue, but in the States its the only way it comes. Its impossible to avoid the politics when it comes to abortion.

But I would like to offer an apology, when I said 'you' I was really referring to the pro-life movement in America, not you specifically. I realize now thats sort of they way it came out, and that wasn't fair. So again, my apologies.

 

[Del Boy]

You are a gent sir. And allow me to apologize if i ever appeared to be condemning those have found themselves between a rock and a hard place trying to deal personally with such a problem. We all have our own packs to carry, and God knows, I find mine (guilt) quite heavy enough thanks.

I'm now going to collect my coat and quietly slip away from this one while I still have my skin!

 

[Infern0]

im amazed this discussion has stayed as civil as it it has...a credit to all commenting in it. well done.


as someone who has made this difficult decision before...im pro choice (but it's not as huge of an issue here is it is in the US for example)

it wasn't the easy way out,but it was the best of a series of shitty shitty options. but im glad we made the choice we made. neither me, or my partner was in any position to raise a child. and yes, there was protection used on both sides, magic BB's happen it seems.

personally the highly emotive terms the pro lifers seem to use really get my back up, and is in effect their morals being enforced to the point where they want to tell my partner what she does with her body...where as the pro choice lobby forces no one to do something they dont want to.

 

[Damien435]

Since I live in the only state to actually pass a legislative ban on abortion, this is a subject with which I have some familiarity.

Abortion IS:
A life saving procedure when the mother is in danger.
A legitimate means to terminate a pregnancy that is the result of rape or incest.

Abortion IS NOT:
A voluntary procedure as a matter of convenience to the women.
A voluntary procedure to save money << Even the GOP concedes that children should be given financial assistance and provide money, vouchers and healthcare for those who are unable to pay for it themselves.
A form of contraceptive.

Now, it's important to clarify something here. Some people will lump certain miscarriages in with abortions to fudge the numbers and make abortion look more widespread and acceptable. A woman can have a miscarriage anytime between the day of conception and the birth. If I remember correctly, a period can technically be considered a miscarriage. Having a miscarriage in the fourth month that requires medical attention IS NOT an abortion, it's a miscarriage. The "my body, my choice" argument falls on deaf ears for me, the government already says I'm not allowed to do drugs in my own bedroom and if I was to ever get back into the Army they would tell me I'm not allowed to stick certain objects in certain holes. The government already tells me I can't sleep with horses (not that it's on my bucket list or anything) and I'm not allowed to drink alcohol. I'm not allowed to ask a doctor to end my life if I'm in pain, miserable, but am unable to perform the action myself. The government already maintains a list of things we can and can not do to our own bodies, abortion definitely shouldn't be different, especially when more than the mother's life is in danger.

Now, having said that, I also think the government should take more steps to help poor families with raising children. If a man gets a woman pregnant, those two, as parents, have a duty to provide for the child. If I get a woman pregnant here at school I would drop out of school and start working full-time, multiple jobs, overtime as possible. The child didn't make a mistake, I did, I should be the one to pick up the slack, not the child.

Here's a video I thought was kind of interesting about our recent abortion ban. This video, like all others, says that the law made no exception for incest, rape or health of the mother (but of course danger to the mother's health and mother's life in danger means the same thing over here since every pregnancy puts the mother at risk) which of course is ridiculous. Referred Law 6 made exceptions for all those cases and mandated the use of the morning after pill in the case of rape and incest to prevent the pregnancy from occurring. But because it wasn't worded specifically enough some people liked to say it didn't make the exception. Another bill has been introduced to the State Legislature to ban abortion, this time it states the exceptions for rape, incest and mother's health more specifically.

Link

 

[pixiedustboo]

The child didn't make a mistake, I did, I should be the one to pick up the slack, not the child.

WELL SAID!

 

[Fox]

Pro-life except in cases of rape, incest, or the life of the Mother. We can't use abortion to cull the herd.

I'm on the same page as you.

 

[Del Boy]

im amazed this discussion has stayed as civil as it it has...a credit to all commenting in it. well done.


"where as the pro choice lobby forces no one to do something they dont want to.

"



Except the baby,of course. And the rest of society who have to accept responsibility for existence of abortion in their midst as though they condone it. ( just talking principle - I am not fighting about it here.)

I stand just about where Damien does I think, but I haven't had time to read the small print. And Missileer.

I really must shut up.