Now I understand your point, but Islam spread through PEACE

Please give me some examples, believe me i'll be happy to know.

Only USA and India pose strategic challenges for muslims. On the other hand Europe, Russia and China enjoy very good relations with most of the muslim nations today and are contributing to there military strengths as well.

India enjoys a very good relationship with middle east muslim nations which include Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey.In fact there's a steady shift of Iran towards India.India doesn't do this for nothing, it needs oil and the M.E. countries know this well.Same applies to China.India also has excellent relations with islamic CIS countries which include Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan , Tajikistan etc. and also Afghanistan.You yourself know well who will these countries opt for in case of a India / Pakistan stand off.The only somewhat good friends Pakistan has in this region are China and Saudi Arabia.Anyway lets not convert this into an India/Pakistan debate.

But believe me it was fastest spreading religion in USA it-self (before 9/11) and situation changed later on but that does not effect muslim population growth in any way.

You think ppl converted to Islam ? , please don't tell me that, i won't buy that.One thing Islam spread fast is because a man can have any number of wives and as many children as allah wanted off these wives.Second reason is the forcible conversions by Mughals and other Islamic tyrants all around the world through all these centuries.

The age of religion does not indicate its success. Only christianity managed to become the largest religion but Islam is quickly gaining momentum (already the 2nd largest in the world).

my reason for my comment was to let you know what religion the ppl who were forcibly converted to Islam belonged to originally.

And muslims around the world are waiting for a charismatic leader to come and unite them. This leader would be the 12th caliph according to Islamic calender. And no force would be able to stop him on earth (whether anyone believes it or not because muslims will be not be the same again once he arrives)!

I hope he arrives soon and teaches muslims not to kill innocent children and ppl in the name of allah and educate them on how to co-exist with ppl of other religions peacefully.

Originally Posted by TBA_PAKI

Now I understand your point, but Islam spread through PEACE in some cases and then through Military Adventures in some cases as well. It all comes down to the type of muslim leader and also the behaviour of foreign parties. But I was pointing to population growth of muslims rather then spread of Islam.

But believe me it was fastest spreading religion in USA it-self (before 9/11) and situation changed later on but that does not effect muslim population growth in any way.

The age of religion does not indicate its success. Only christianity managed to become the largest religion but Islam is quickly gaining momentum (already the 2nd largest in the world).

Only USA and India pose strategic challenges for muslims. On the other hand Europe, Russia and China enjoy very good relations with most of the muslim nations today and are contributing to there military strengths as well.

As far as the strongest nations are concerned, they are focusing on making there countries un-conquerable by anyone rather then enforcing strategic challenges.

And muslims around the world are waiting for a charismatic leader to come and unite them. This leader would be the 12th caliph according to Islamic calender. And no force would be able to stop him on earth (whether anyone believes it or not because muslims will be not be the same again once he arrives)!

The problem is that human nature in most cases cannot deal with power and remain unchanged. There is as much corruption in Islam as there is in any other religion. Many of the Mullahs, who should be holy men and use their influence to promote Islam peaceably, instead become corrupted by the power they have and use it to their own ends.

And regarding the 12th caliph I do not believe such a man will ever come. The world is different from the way it has been in the past. It's impossible for any man to gain such influence unless he had sole control over the press, television and other information channels, which is just not going to happen. And even if he could and he chose, to forcibly, introduce Islam to the rest of the world the forces arrayed against him would make that impossible.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

The problem is that human nature in most cases cannot deal with power and remain unchanged. There is as much corruption in Islam as there is in any other religion. Many of the Mullahs, who should be holy men and use their influence to promote Islam peaceably, instead become corrupted by the power they have and use it to their own ends.

And regarding the 12th caliph I do not believe such a man will ever come. The world is different from the way it has been in the past. It's impossible for any man to gain such influence unless he had sole control over the press, television and other information channels, which is just not going to happen. And even if he could and he chose, to forcibly, introduce Islam to the rest of the world the forces arrayed against him would make that impossible.

I agree with your first part of the post. Yes many leaders became corrupted due to access to massive powers and liberty to control masses and believe me that this has happened from centuries. But the ultimate test of faith is who is the best and honest.

As far as your second point is concerned, I have to disagree. Muslims and christians believe in the second arrival of Jesus and before him the mysterious Anti-christ will come to rule the world with Iron Fist. But Islamic Hadith (1400+ years old) also talks about the arrival of 12th Caliph in the time of Anti-christ (11 have already arrived in different times). This man would be most powerful of all and he will believe in principles of honesty, Peace and Unity and only he will be able to end corruption among muslims.

It is part of our faith and Islamic prophecies haven't failed yet. But it is not important for non-muslims to believe in it. And you know what! there are certain signs mentioned before his arrival and among them is "the creation of Israel in the lands of arabia" - which became truth after WWII.

[quote="Xion"]

Please give me some examples, believe me i'll be happy to know.

NOTE: Better avoid turning this thread in to religious pin-pointing!

Well thats a good question but also lengthy one. Take account of how Islam spread in Arabia (Although you might say that Prophet (P.B.U.H) fought wars with many but those were not of his choosing, instead he had no option but to fight like a man with those who wanted to eliminate him and his companions and he won). But take a look at his life-time from Islamic sources and you will know about his wonderful personality.

And also read about the "4 rightly guided Caliphs" and you will know about there preferences as well.

Also the example of Daata Ganj Baksh in Sub-continent!

Originally Posted by Xion

India enjoys a very good relationship with middle east muslim nations which include Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey.In fact there's a steady shift of Iran towards India.India doesn't do this for nothing, it needs oil and the M.E. countries know this well.Same applies to China.India also has excellent relations with islamic CIS countries which include Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan , Tajikistan etc. and also Afghanistan.You yourself know well who will these countries opt for in case of a India / Pakistan stand off.The only somewhat good friends Pakistan has in this region are China and Saudi Arabia.Anyway lets not convert this into an India/Pakistan debate.

Of-course I haven't said that India does not enjoy good relations with many muslim countries. But I was talking from Pakistan's perspective, though recent signs in improvement of ties and understanding of core issues between these too nations is good. But India does pose a strategic challenge for Pakistan and is because of this situation that my country's military has started under-going the "15 year Modernnaization plan". And many muslim nations demand Peace among our nations rather then favouring any side (but Pakistan enjoys more support from them in case of hostilities).

Originally Posted by Xion

You think ppl converted to Islam ? , please don't tell me that, i won't buy that.One thing Islam spread fast is because a man can have any number of wives and as many children as allah wanted off these wives.Second reason is the forcible conversions by Mughals and other Islamic tyrants all around the world through all these centuries.

Ask an american and you would know the answer. Islam supports about marrying up to 4 wives (if one can support them financially but preference is of one).

And I also know the history of sub-continent very well. About what happened in India, does not tell about the situations in other regions. And you know what! Indians had the concept of castes in them (Brahmin, Shudar etc..) and different kinds of behaviour were met to people according to there castes. Muslims arrived and introduced the concept of equality thus many neglected ones embraced Islam. Although there were signs of dis-respect to hindus in some cases (but according to man-made customs, it is justified that victorious side can implement its authority and everyone has been doing that and you know it)

Originally Posted by Xion

my reason for my comment was to let you know what religion the ppl who were forcibly converted to Islam belonged to originally.

They were not forcibly converted but moral values of muslims encouraged them. And the conditions before the arrival of Islam was pitiful (burning daughters alive was among the non-believers customs).

Originally Posted by Xion

I hope he arrives soon and teaches muslims not to kill innocent children and ppl in the name of allah and educate them on how to co-exist with ppl of other religions peacefully.

Well thats a positive opinion from your part and believe it or not, the future caliph will stop all corruption among muslims.

It looks like fantasy to me. know what prediction didn't work most of time.

Right after Islam started, and excuse my blanks in my history on the subject, there was a ruler who gained much land for the arabs and he let the jews and christians practice their religion free, if they payed taxes, which was reasonable, because EVERYONE payed them, not just jews and christians. Some did convert and others chose not to, but yes Islam, at least in the beginning was spread through PEACE

i do believe mohammad fought over 100 wars in his life time...

also can someone explain how islam... which spawned after judaism and christianity miraculously was able to tie jesus, moses and abraham to them and claim them as their own prophets, imo this is a way to make islam more acceptable for conversion...

also islam seems to work with secular muslims (i dont know if secular is wrong word, but i mean muslims living in western countries who arnt religeos, that is my opinion however and nuthing more.)

gladius wrote goto page 19 see that message:

This is what I see as far as the future political situation of Europe some 10 years ahead.

I think gladius is the true prophet on this subject. I can read and see it take place before my own eyes, and for that reason I must congratulate gladius for his excisting no lack-of-vision ability. If you are an European and read that post you can see it is not only a scenario. It is something that is building up right before your eyes. Maby this is only something a Scandinavian Sweed may see today? Maybe it is so that it is`nt as obvious for other neighbouring countrys? Maby I am as gladius wrote fairly alone about this critical voice? What do I know? A Tora Bora complex would not be a good solution in an armed conflict scenario.

But their are plenty of underwater caves in our different lakes around my strategic defence sector. You dont have to digg, you can dive and swim and make it pretty good for a while. The winters is what is the main problem over here I think as you say the_13th_redneck. Regardless of who this attacker is and regardless of what type of attack - conventional - over the borders - non-conventional- from the inside out, and regardless of who this profet of European Empire that leads this attack on this country and all the liberal political parties that sell our freedom away for temporary security- They will have a hard time to smoke the resistance out throughout this country I think.

Cheers:
Doc.S

Whatever happens, it'll be interesting, and one for the history books.
I have a track record of "interesting" things happening wherever I go. Maybe it's not a coincidence that I might be going to Europe in a few years' time.

_redneck I hope you have fun in Europe. I myself hope to go back there in a few years, hopefully...

Originally Posted by TBA_PAKI

Believe me those are lies purported by some fanatics and it is not going to be like as you mentioned. And I already mentioned that muslims usually have good opinions for most Europeans (but British need more polishing)!

About the battle you speak off will be fought in "Middle East regions of Syria, Northern parts of SA and Turkey" at the same time as predicted by our last Prophet (P.B.U.H), whether you believe it or not. It would be a very big war between Romans (USA and Allies probably) and forces of IMAM MEHDI (that would also involve allies from East of Arabia). This war will be fought in 6 years period and would be in 3 Phases.

Both sides will commit massive forces (unlike the current wars we have seen) and Romans sole goal would be saving Modern Turkey (which will have a role in causing trouble for some muslim communities in future). And in the end of this great battle, Constantinople (Istanbul) will be captured by muslims.

I might be as you say. However Islam's track record for being peaceful is not really that good in the past as well as in the present.

I think the writtings are clear that the Mahdi will have to invade Rome.

"You will fight the Romans, and Believers from the Hijaz will fight them after you, until Allah enables them to conquer Constantinople and Rome with Tasbih and Takirr (saying "Subhdn Allah" and "Allahu Akbar"). Its fortifications will collapse, and they will obtain booty the like of which has never been seen, so that they will share it out by scooping it up with their shields. Then someone will cry, 'O Muslims! the Dajjal is in your country, with your families', and the people will leave the wealth. Anyone who takes notice will regret it and anyone who ignores it will regret it.

Secondly, the Muslims will have the Mahdi with them, so they will think they are invincible. If they think are invincible and nothing can defeat them, it would then be so easy for them to to say, "lets go invade Europe". Any radical influence towards this invasion would be easily agreed to.

And no force would be able to stop him on earth (whether anyone believes it or not because muslims will be not be the same again once he arrives)!

Hey you, yourself said it. C'mon I think anyone with any insight can see that this will lead to a war.

Not to metion this is another prophecy that has to be fullfilled too;

A jamaat of Muslims wages Jihaad on India and be successful.

So the coming of the Mahdi will bring forth war all over.

There are too many Muslim radicals out there that want this war to happen, unless the Mulsim world can stamp them out completely, or is even willing to do so, this will happen.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

And regarding the 12th caliph I do not believe such a man will ever come. The world is different from the way it has been in the past. It's impossible for any man to gain such influence unless he had sole control over the press, television and other information channels, which is just not going to happen. And even if he could and he chose, to forcibly, introduce Islam to the rest of the world the forces arrayed against him would make that impossible.

You may not believe it but a billion other people do.

Look at TBA_PAKI, he is only one out of a billion who believes in this ernestly. There are those that control information networks who believe in this as well.

With a billion people believing in something this badly, believe me they will try hard to make this happen, whether it suceeds or not they will try. ....but thats what I have been saying all along.