The rising of an Empire and the future invasion of Europe!

[sandy]

Re-weaponize? You mean with nuclear weapons, ICBMs, Aircraft Carriers and bombers? Because Japan already has all other sorts of weapons.

In my nation,Product rate of IFV is only 1 a year
What does this fact mean?

 

[gladius]

Voicing one's outrage in protest along with others is a long shot from creating a tightly-bound military and political alliance.
Remember that time the USA invaded Iraq and people descended on the streets accross the whole globe including America? Did you prophesize a world-crusade against the U.S. that included half of the United States population back then?

I saw no world crusade against the US was going to happen during the Iraq invasion. This was only wishful thinking from people like you. If there was any good possibility of this happening then I would have said it. But did I? NO, no way, not even close. And if you did predict somekind of world crusade against the US (you probably did didn't you) that shows you how flawed your assesment of world dynamics and situations are.

It seems that you may have very little understanding of Muslims mentality and beliefs. You are comparing things from a very limited Western/left-wing point of view.

Your comparisons are not even close, its like comparing apples and oranges two different things with different qualities. The reason for this is that you keep assesing this without true knoledge of Muslim psychology. You think, what you think, is what they think. Not even close, not by a long shot.

You are precieving Mulsim political stances and Muslim core values and one and the same, they are not. So voicing one's outrage in protest along with others showed the core value of what most all Muslim adhere to. As long as they have these core value they are never far from unification. All they lack is a leader. How many separate political factions and groups did Germany have during the 1930's before one charismatic leader was able to harness the situation for his total domination.

No matter how disunited a group is, as long as they have core values that they all strongly share and a leader smart or wise enough to appeal to these then they can be united. This goes for any group, throughout history past, present, and future.

You can laugh when I say, thier tanks will be rolling not too far from where you live, but the possibility of this happening is greater than the possibility of it not happening.

My question is, where will Israel stand? I know they are jewish, but they are sorrounded my islamic countries, so it stands to reason they will join with them. Also, in David it says that the ruler will "embrace a long lost brother", and some people see this as meaning israel. If israel joins with the muslim world

Israel will never join the Muslim world. This would be agaist everything the Muslims stand for.

It is in Muslim prophecy that they will destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. I how this helps you to see why there is so much irational trouble in the Middle East. And also why there can never be any lasting peace over there.

This is part of the situational dynamics of which I am trying to explain here, and the Muslims will never compromise in any of it. Alot of people don't know or don't understand this, but when you do you will have a good understanding of why things are going the way they do and where they are most likely to go in the future.

As for a Chinese-Russian alliance, i think the greatest weapon there would to be to allow Japan to re-weaponize (which i think will happen soon anyway) and keep that portion of the world in check.

China and Russia will help the Islamic Empire and arm it, by selling it massive amounts of weapons in order to tip the balance against the West. However they will later realize that the Islamic empire will also be a threat to them.

 

[WNxRogue]

China and Russia will help the Islamic Empire and arm it, by selling it massive amounts of weapons in order to tip the balance against the West. However they will later realize that the Islamic empire will also be a threat to them.

I was actually talking about us fighting the Chinese and Russians, but yes the Chinese and Russians will arm anyone with the money to buy them.

Why would China want a war on their mainland? This scenariou doesn't seem likely at all to me.

I think what he meant is that China can win a war with us on their own soil, but can not win on our terms. You have to remeber, China is a large country, and although such a war would be devastating, if they can keep it away from population centers, the damage could be minimized. Its like the US fighting a war with someone in their own country opposed to say Death Valley (if you are confused by this post me back ).

Most of Israel's ground equipment, UAVs and missiles are Israeli-designed and made. I think mainly their planes are of American origin.

While this may be true, most of Israel's weapons were atleast partially or jointely design by the US military or US corporations; so they will be up to the modern standards of today.

Re-weaponize? You mean with nuclear weapons, ICBMs, Aircraft Carriers and bombers? Because Japan already has all other sorts of weapons.

Actually Japan has no aircraft carriers currently, atleast none that I am aware of, they used land bases to launch their aircraft. But, As Sandy said, the Japanese have modern weapons, just not very many of them by modern standards. When I said reweaponize, I meant start building the amounts to modern standards, which our treaty at the end of WWII stops them from doing.

 

[gladius]

I was actually talking about us fighting the Chinese and Russians, but yes the Chinese and Russians will arm anyone with the money to buy them.

A war with Chian seems like a scenario in alot of people minds. But the reality is China has so much more to lose than gain in a war with the US. Alot of it is posturing in Beijing to save face to their own people.

I know theyd like to beat the US and take Taiwan but the reality is a different story. And I think they are more realistic than not.

All the products in Wallmart come from China, they are economically dependant on us, and getting more so each year. If we empose a boycott China will have a full economic collapse.

The only real serious danger for China to have a war with us is if they were to be taken over by some crazy mad leadership. I seriously think China is smart enough avoid war, since they have more to gain by developing economically, they don't have some crazy religious mandate or prophecy like the Muslims that throws all logic out the window.

As for Russia they know they can't win, even in a alliance with China. It makes a good scenario but the reality is they have more to lose than gain. Besides they where at the height of their power in cold war, that was Russia and China's best chance they didn't take it then, and they won't take it now.

Thats why I'm saying that Russia and China will help prop up the future Islamic Empire, to offset the West. They will let the Muslims do all the work since they are not dumb.

For them this will be a double gain, of making money from selling massive of amounts of weapons, and secondly have a powerful force to face off against the West without them lifting a finger. So you can see why they will be more than happy to do this.

The only problem is ---once unleashed, the Islamic Empire will prove to be a beast that will ravage the earth, and later will be a big problem even for them.

 

[WNxRogue]

Here is what I see. In the next 10-15 years china steadly gains power. They get agressive and annex Mongolia (more land and possible farming areas) this will not anger the US too much, we will most likely have another 1938 when the british tried to appease the germans. With the scent of conquest they got, china will then either annex or forcebly ally with vietnam, cambodia, laos and thailand. From there, they might make a play on Korea, but the more inteligent move is to go for Siberian Russia (plenty of resources, lumber, iron, gold, oil) then from there it gets sticky. Do they attempt a war on Japan........i think not because this would greatly anger us, or go for possibly india or even sections of western asia?

I made this scenario for 1 reason: Its the only way to procede without US interference. Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Mongolia, and vietnam are not great allies of ours. And even siberia is so underdeveloped so it probably wont anger us. It takes a lot to drag us into a war, and if it does not directly threaten us, then we will not get involved.

Tell me what you think of this.

 

[A Can of Man]

China always messes with Korea. It's only a matter of time. They already make claims that Korean history is in fact a small piece of Chinese history. Whatever.

 

[sandy]

China always messes with Korea. It's only a matter of time. They already make claims that Korean history is in fact a small piece of Chinese history. Whatever.

so,
You say,N&S korea will be client state of china again.

 

[ASTRALdragon]

Here is what I see. In the next 10-15 years china steadly gains power. They get agressive and annex Mongolia (more land and possible farming areas) this will not anger the US too much, we will most likely have another 1938 when the british tried to appease the germans. With the scent of conquest they got, china will then either annex or forcebly ally with vietnam, cambodia, laos and thailand. From there, they might make a play on Korea, but the more inteligent move is to go for Siberian Russia (plenty of resources, lumber, iron, gold, oil) then from there it gets sticky. Do they attempt a war on Japan........i think not because this would greatly anger us, or go for possibly india or even sections of western asia?

I made this scenario for 1 reason: Its the only way to procede without US interference. Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Mongolia, and vietnam are not great allies of ours. And even siberia is so underdeveloped so it probably wont anger us. It takes a lot to drag us into a war, and if it does not directly threaten us, then we will not get involved.

Tell me what you think of this.

I highly doubt this scenario because China annexing other lands will mean that they are expanding the power and influence. This is something the US will not stand for. If anything, the US wants to limits China's power in the Asian theater. That is why the US maintains ties with Taiwan, Japan, S. Korea, etc. That is why the US keeps about 2 carrier battle groups in the region at any given time.

The moment China invades Mongolia, Thailand, or Vietnam, the prime minsters of each of those nations will appeal to the UN for help and I believe that the UN will consider China's moves to be illegal and move against them. I highly doubt that China can take on the world. Ths US will most likely intervene on Vietnam's and maybe even Thailand's call for help because Vietnam is the US's "little China." The US relies on Vietnam for cheap labor just in the same way as they rely on China, only on a smaller scale and Vietnam is not a preceived threat. As for Thailand, I think they have strong diplomatic ties with the US but I'm not sure so correct me on that if I'm wrong.

As for China invading Japan.... lol I dare them to. If they do, I hope China is prepared to face the full brunt of 6+ American carrier battle groups...

 

[A Can of Man]

so,
You say,N&S korea will be client state of china again.

Anything's possible. I just hope not.

On the invasion of Mongolia. I HIGHLY doubt that will happen because first of all, there's nothing worth taking in Mongolia. It's all high terrain and desert there. There is far more land in China for farming than in Mongolia where they still herd animals as a way of life.

The Chinese influence in the area will be economic. If the Chinese can get more money into their universities, all kinds of smart people in the region who have the brains but not the money to go study in America or Canada will start to learn Chinese and go to Chinese universities. Also, Chinese influence in Southeast Asia will also be economical, but also extremely strong due to ties with rich and powerful ethnic Chinese families that control the vast majority of capital in countries like Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore.

 

[sandy]

Anything's possible. I just hope not.

JA,I don,t want but have to imagine Chinese Re-colonized Plan of Korea.
These days,China buys North korean mines and lands etc・・・
NK is being economic colony of china.
and SK,China pressures SK strongly and Anti-US&Pro-China power is getting stronger in assenbly.
If China set military in SK where US is being now・・・・
Oh god!It,s nightmare!
But Fortunately,India is getting stronger and stronger in all side.
Now Japanese company&government respects India.
We should strongly support India.

 

[zander_0633]

Well, wad if India Supports China?

 

[sandy]

I can,t find any reason for India to support china actively.
at first,you should think why India went to nuclear program even be criticized by International opinion.
Answer is for self-defense from Pakistan&Chinese threat.
Pakistan is supported by china.
you can realize Pakistan,s weapon are developped with china.
For example,JF-17 and Type-2000.

and more,China attacked India.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/mbt-2000.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/fc-1.htm

 

[gladius]

This goes back to my original statement of of why China will intially support an Islamic Empire, not only a counter to the West but also India.

While everyone is busy paying attention to this new empire, China increases power and does her own thing under the radar. But eventually not even China will espcape what it help to create.

I made this scenario for 1 reason: Its the only way to procede without US interference. Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Mongolia, and vietnam are not great allies of ours. And even siberia is so underdeveloped so it probably wont anger us. It takes a lot to drag us into a war, and if it does not directly threaten us, then we will not get involved.

Tell me what you think of this.

As soon as China starts making any aggressive moves toward aquiring territory, the US will start to impose economic sanctions. This will spell disaster for China since they are almost totally dependant on us economically.

Even if a territory is not freindly to the US, both the international community and the US will do something about it. China knows this.

Yes China wants to modernize, and they want to be a power that can take on the USA on equal terms. Even at thier best pace it will take them about 50 years minimum to achieve this. Not only that for them to achieve this status they will have to turn capitalist and become democratic for their economy to truly become a powerhouse that can take on the USA, and if that happens the point will be moot, they are no longer a threat. At their current political and socio-economic state they simply cannot achieve a modernized economic status compable of taking on the full might of the USA, although they are trying hard.

Like I mentioned the proposition of arming an Islamic Empire to fight the West, and while the West is busy they take Tawian and increase their influence, will seem like an attractive deal to them. Although they may regret it later.

If China is dumb enough to risk severe economic sanctions by making any aggresive moves directly against the US or the world community the economic santions will cripple them and set them back 20 years. Thier own citizens do not have enough disposable income to keep their massive economy going (they make something like $3 a day). This is one of the reasons why I said earlier you need to be a capitalistic democracy to be a powerhouse.

Having said that, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't watch out for China, we should. They'll try to do alot of the things that you mention if we let them. However this China is a threat, is not all that it seems to be. Alot of what China is doing right now is posturing. They are setting themselves up so they can have more bargaining power and influence in world affairs, and yes its working.

 

[WNxRogue]

At this point im not so sure. With the current feelings in the US (anti-conflict feelings) they might not be so fast to respond, and as much as they are dependent on us, we are as dependent on them.

 

[Ollie Garchy]

"I have alot better idea than you".

Hmmm...are you claiming enlightenment?

"The Muslim empire will happen in your lifetime, and their tanks will be rolling not too far from where you live".

God, I hope so. I need target practice. I suggest looking at some American military comparisons. The Muslim world still uses V-2 rocket technology.

"Please would you go over there kindly tell them that. It would make things alot easier. Maybe they wont act the way they did about the catoon, ...or maybe they'll just kill you. Good luck"

I do not care what the Muslims believe. They could pray to rocks for all I care. By the way, what will they kill me with? Suicide bombers? Wow..now that's military technology for you.

"I hope you get what I'm saying here, if you think they are going to discard their religion just like that, perhaps you need to see things from a more realistic perspective".

I honestly do not care what they believe. I was merely using this forum to point out that the Muslims are stupid. Period.

Here is prophecy for you: Sometime during the next six months, American bombers will fly over Iran and "bomb the living bejeepers" out of a range of targets. What will Iran retaliate with? I know! With a whole lot of imaginary bombs and maybe, God forbid, weird political demonstrations. Now that's power. "I is just pooping my pants". Oh no, the Arabs and Muslims are coming to attack the west.

I say let them come...then we can finish off the problem once and for all.

 

[zander_0633]

Well, Y not declare a full scale Crusade? Wipe them from the face of the earth?

 

[deerslayer]

There's one tiny fly in the ointment on all this.

Times are changing. Parties, not people, are incumbent in government now, with the exception of the Middle East. In the scenario of the 15/16th centuries, you're looking at a political base that was also religiously founded (the Caliphate of Islam. Islam was and still is as much a series of political disagreements as it is a religion.)

With changing administrations around the world, it's difficult to predict what will happen ten or fifteen years from now. The people on a grand scale stay the same; the politics change every day. Muslims are too disjoined and sectarian to fully unite and form any sort of empire at this point. I'll wait for the reply on this before continuing.

 

[gladius]

The people on a grand scale stay the same; the politics change every day.

Exactly. You are confusing politics for core values, as with everyone else who doesn't understand this subject. You say they are disjointed, their politics are, yes. Their core values remain the same.

The united uproar over some silly cartoon a few weeks ago showed united core values that transcended politics. The importance of the Mahdi prophecies are far above and beyond in importance to your average Muslims that was that cartoon.

Muslims are too disjoined and sectarian to fully unite and form any sort of empire at this point. I'll wait for the reply on this before continuing.

So were the Germans in the 1920 & 30's but the had the same core values, in that they were Germans. The only thing lacking was a leader to unite them.

The situation is the same with the Muslims, all they lack is their prophesied leader to unite them all. Everything else is in place, as such the Muslim are waiting for this very event to take place.

[side note: this is the true reason Iran is arming and pursuing the bomb, they believe they are to be one of the conerstone nations to usher the coming of the Mahdi and a greater Islamic empire. ...so in a way its already begun]

So no fly in the oinment, this is not as far fetched as you may think. In fact your average Muslim would say this is invitable and destined to happen, ... and there happen to be over a billion of them.

Well, Y not declare a full scale Crusade? Wipe them from the face of the earth?

That will never happen, the West is too politically correct.

Hmmm...are you claiming enlightenment?

Not really, but more enlightenment than you, yes. Like I said before you come here with all these comments seemingly with answers, but I'm afraid your limited knowledge is keeping you from seeing the big picture.

God, I hope so. I need target practice. I suggest looking at some American military comparisons. The Muslim world still uses V-2 rocket technology.

They are certainly not stupid, they are not going to come at us with spears and camels. This technology gap has been discussed in this thread several times already and each time I gave the explanations of why this is not as much of a factor as people think.

Like I said about limited knowledge. I have three letters for you EMP. Its in this thread. Get back to me when you have found this you may change your mind about what you said.

Even though their technology is not up to par with the West, their massive numbers and the EMP weapon will even the odds.

I do not care what the Muslims believe. They could pray to rocks for all I care. By the way, what will they kill me with? Suicide bombers? Wow..now that's military technology for you.

Suicide bombers? Sure, how many of them do you have livinmg in your country? More and more are coming everyday within 15 to 20 years how many more will there be?

They will fight you from inside at the same time you are being invaded from outside. Makes sense from a stragetic perspective doesn't it.

I honestly do not care what they believe. I was merely using this forum to point out that the Muslims are stupid. Period.

I agree with you neither do I. But the point is they do. When people believe in something they act on it. Do you see why what they believ is relevant to this discusion.

Here is prophecy for you: Sometime during the next six months, American bombers will fly over Iran and "bomb the living bejeepers" out of a range of targets. What will Iran retaliate with? I know! With a whole lot of imaginary bombs and maybe, God forbid, weird political demonstrations. Now that's power. "I is just pooping my pants". Oh no, the Arabs and Muslims are coming to attack the west.

Well anyone can makle prophecies so go ahead it doesn't mean it will come true. I cited other prophecies & prophets because they had a good track record for predicting events that did come true.

The Muslim prophecies I don't care about, but others that have predicted the future before are predicting events along the lines of what I have said. Of a massive world war against an Empire of a terrible world leader from the Middle East area. But you don't have to believe any of that, just look at the facts I have so far presented within this thread.

I say let them come...then we can finish off the problem once and for all.

I wish it would be that easy. But with the current geo-political situation we may be in for a fight for survival when the time comes some 15 to 20 years down the road.

 

[Ollie Garchy]

I wish it would be that easy. But with the current geo-political situation we may be in for a fight for survival when the time comes some 15 to 20 years down the road.

Gladius,

I do not have to read the other posts of this thread to understand Muslim military technology. I have recently analysed the work of Anthony H. Cordesman (from CSIS) concerning the subject. He is one of the leading experts in this field. Here are a couple of conclusions of real importance in relation to Iran (Iraq was neutralized):

1) Iran's potential to create a nuclear bomb is overrated. They need 5-10 years in order to produce a few small variants. These bombs would be smaller than those used at Hiroshima. MAD concepts would not come into play. Remember that the US arsenal includes thousands of deadly hydrogen devices.

2) Iran's rockets (the Shahab I to III) are complete junk. They have minimal payloads, minimal range and poor defensive capabilities against western anti-missile defence systems. War is in any case far more than just nukes, rockets or tanks. A whole range of issues such as strategy, operational methods, tactics, societal values, etc. come into play.

3) MOST IMPORTANT: Iran does not have the industrial infrastructure necessary to produce major weapons systems such as tanks or artillery in large quantities. In order to do so, Iran (and other Muslim countries) will have to industrialize and successfully sell civilian commodities on the world market. They need capacities such as those in the west. Otherwise, a massive rearmament program will bankrupt the Middle East and lead nowhere. How can Iran compete with say Germany in tank or artillery design? The Iranians cannot. The Germans have a proven development infrastructure funded by state expenditures and built on companies whose names include Daimler, etc. Is this German infrastructure going to stop designing new weapons or disappear? Hardly. What about the Americans? Do you know how hard and expensive it is to build a stealth bomber? What about the next generation of robotic weapons systems?

All of the hypotheses concerning the rise of the Muslim world (or even China) are built on the assumption that the West will remain stagnant, fail to respond over a 20-year period, or even decline. This hypothesis, considering massive American financing of weapons technology, is just stupid. The US spends over $500 billion per year on the military. Do you honestly think that this money will not produce any results? What about the $100 billion spent by Europe? Come on! The West is still in control of modern technological breakthroughs. The Third World is trying to play catch up. At the current rates of development, the West will only widen the breach between the two. What will the Muslim world do to develop a competitive industrial system? Good luck figuring that one out. It will make you a millionaire if you do.

Conclusion: The Muslim world will have to do a lot of praying. Only Allah will be able to alter the current balance of power.

[Do you honestly believe that the west would not develop a countermeasure for the EMP weapon?]

 

[deerslayer]

Alright, to try and settle this debate

Analysis: Moslem forces possess low-tech solutions to high-tech problems that ultimately harass and confuse western forces. 4GW at its best, but it hasn't stopped us in that type of conflict.

Analysis: The west, and Americans especially, are too damned stubborn as a whole not to respond until peace and quiet is restored. This bleeding heart liberal thing is largely just on the left coast.

Analysis: We (the democratic Western world) have the technical advantage, and generally the political connections, to fight a successful 4GW conflict. Our limiting factor in America is the resistance to change in warfare. I'm not sure about the rest of the world.

Ollie Garchy (nice pun, by the way) has it exactly right. Look at Chad- they managed to sustain a full scale war for what, six weeks or less against Sudan? When you consider the amount of outdated and nonfunctional warfare material littered across the Mideast, the materiel for warfighting may be there, but it's not in a capacity to serve.

Bottom line: This Moslem Empire may be able to sustain a marginally successful offensive into Europe. However, it will lose momentum quickly and revert into the current fourth generation/ antiterror (note use of prefix anti) that plagues the west anyway. So we're looking at very little change.

And Gladius, I'm glad you say that I have politics confused with core values. Politics is the application and defense of core values to obtain a goal and attempt to settle civil dispute. In the case of the Moslems, their politics and core values intertwine, and are both fragmented. That's why we have sectarian killings.

Oh, yeah, we all have our own little Mahdi- it's called death. It's the way the world goes round, people. There are more attempts at creating a united Muslim state than I'd care to count.