The rising of an Empire and the future invasion of Europe! - Page 26




 
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February 22nd, 2005  
TBA_PAKI
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddster
Hmm, I think people forget that A) the European Union has a population of 460 Million, and Europe itself has 600 Million +. We have small militaries at the moment, but with the equipment and a better trained army, we would defeat them.

I apologise for how basic my staement is, I'm tired lol. I just find it ridiculous the way that some people believe Europe would be taken over easily by this Islamic Coalition.

And the European ''Pacifist'' policy. What policy? Just because most European countries did not go into Iraq does not mean we are pacifists.

I'm too tired to go into an argument, but I hope people understand what I'm getting at here.

Thanks, Pad.
Again you are looking from one side of the coin. Just understand the following basic points below!

--> Winning a war involves many factors (political implications, public support, military might, Intelligence etc)

--> If any party lacks anyone of those advantages then war will not be successful for long.

--> The total population of Europe does not indicate the number of those who are capable of fighting in War like scenarios. Believe me that such people are always short in number (and this case is for anyone)!

--> And if such war occurs then Europe will be totally destroyed and the invaders will also suffer greatly. Thus there would be no victory for any side. Thus END OF STORY!
February 22nd, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBA_PAKI
--> Winning a war involves many factors (political implications, public support, military might, Intelligence etc)

--> If any party lacks anyone of those advantages then war will not be successful for long.

--> The total population of Europe does not indicate the number of those who are capable of fighting in War like scenarios. Believe me that such people are always short in number (and this case is for anyone)!

--> And if such war occurs then Europe will be totally destroyed and the invaders will also suffer greatly. Thus there would be no victory for any side. Thus END OF STORY!
If you read through the entire thread (I know, who has the time?), you'd have run accross my counterpoint to this. A future Islamic Superstate has several big problem if they want to invade Europe:
1.) It is extremely unlikely that such a unification of Islam would happen without the rest of the world - especially Europe - noticing. As a result, if the Islamic Superstate is building a massive military, Europe automatcally builds up its own military. Essentially, its just another arms race at that point, but in this case only one side is already self sufficient in the development of modern military hardware.
2.) If Islam wants to get their 3 biggest players (Pakistan, Indonesia and Bangladesh are the most populous Muslim nations in the world) involved, they will have to completely defeat India. India alone has roughly the same population as the entire Muslim world. India is also modernizing and developing more quickly than any Muslim country I can think of. So knocking out India is absolutely not easy to accomplish. There is no way that the Islamic state can afford to have a gigantic potentially hostile force at their backs if they are hoping to invade Europe.
3.) The Strait of Gibraltar and the route through Turkey are choke points. Since Russia is likely to be the Islamic States primary arms dealer, it is unlikely that they would go around. If the Islamic State cannot control the seas (that is would more likekly be the case), they have to invade through those two chokepoints. Whether by airlift or by ships, that is a very ominous task as long as Europe plays it right. If I had command of European forces and was outnumbered 5 to 1, I promise you I can beat back the invasion indefinitely. Any decent commander could.


The real threat to Europe is Islam overwhelming them from within and that is something that is already happening.
February 22nd, 2005  
gladius
 
I can see this old thread is revived again, just like the coming empire that is about to be revived. *winks to Doc.S*


Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
What the world of Islam currently lacks right now is unity and motivation. Germany had plenty of that. Ancient Islam did too, so it will be interesting to see what happens next in modern day Islam.
Germany had that unity in Adolph Hitler.

Remember the most important factor in all this, the man who will unite this empire, he will be Emperor, Dictator, Holyman all in one. His word will be comparable to an edict from heaven. Hitler will have nothing on him. This one man will be the unity and motivation that starts all this.

Quote:
3.) The Strait of Gibraltar and the route through Turkey are choke points. Since Russia is likely to be the Islamic States primary arms dealer, it is unlikely that they would go around. If the Islamic State cannot control the seas (that is would more likekly be the case), they have to invade through those two chokepoints.
The open oceans they will be hoplessly outclassed. But in a small enclosed sea like the Mediterranean, they may have a chance.

If you believe in Nostradamus, he actually predicts they will wrest control of the Med, but we can't really use this as proof, now can we. Even without ol' Nos I can picture scenarios were they could have a chance at controling the Med.

Quote:
If I had command of European forces and was outnumbered 5 to 1, I promise you I can beat back the invasion indefinitely. Any decent commander could.
I agree here any Any decent commander could beat back a foe a 5 to 1, especially with superior tech. What about 20 to 1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddster
Hmm, I think people forget that A) the European Union has a population of 460 Million, and Europe itself has 600 Million +. We have small militaries at the moment, but with the equipment and a better trained army, we would defeat them.

I apologise for how basic my staement is, I'm tired lol. I just find it ridiculous the way that some people believe Europe would be taken over easily by this Islamic Coalition.

And the European ''Pacifist'' policy. What policy? Just because most European countries did not go into Iraq does not mean we are pacifists.

I'm too tired to go into an argument, but I hope people understand what I'm getting at here.

Thanks, Pad.
I actaully agree with you here, up to a point, right now the Islamics don't stand a chance.

But 10 or 20 years down the road the population shift may be a factor.

Any take over attemp won't be easy, it will be a titanic struggle the likes of which the world has never seen.

I'm guestimating that a United Europe, even with help form the USA will be able to field some 250 to 300 division for war time emergency.

I believe that when the time comes (given my population estimate at first post of this thread) the Islamic empire will field between 2000 and 4000 motorized or mechanized divisions.

With this massive army attacking Europe the sheer weight of numbers will be a factor. Constant and intense pressure will be felt at all points all along the front, any breakthroughs will be explioted by overwhelming amounts of enemy divisions whose total will be large enough to make up army groups. With this kind pressure along all along the front the Europeans will be hard pressed to have spare divisions to launch a counter attacks. Even with superior technology fighting an enemy this numerous and this massive may take its toll.

Not only this, Europe will have to worry about those attacking from within at the same time. Even if Europe beats them back you can see the cost to stop this invasion will be very high.
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February 22nd, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Gladius, I know you are just ecstatic and all giggly inside to see this thread constantly reviving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladius
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
What the world of Islam currently lacks right now is unity and motivation. Germany had plenty of that. Ancient Islam did too, so it will be interesting to see what happens next in modern day Islam.
Germany had that unity in Adolph Hitler.

Remember the most important factor in all this, the man who will unite this empire, he will be Emperor, Dictator, Holyman all in one. His word will be comparable to an edict from heaven. Hitler will have nothing on him. This one man will be the unity and motivation that starts all this.
I agree that Hitler was significant in motivating Germany, but you are overlooking that Germany was very motivated and driven to excel long before Adolf was born. One dilema that a unifying leader must have an answer for is this: A HUGE segment of your population is not driven nor motivated. How do you turn the whole of Islam into one of the most industrious, scientifically advance and motivated peoples on the planet?? Things can change quickly, but remember, old habits die hard.

On the matter of uniting peoples, Germany's people had been driving for generations for a united Germany long before Bismarck made that a reality. "Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles", the German national anthem, was written when they were still divided into hundreds of kingdoms and it was written with the vision of one day uniting Germany. The drive to be united was there long before Hitler was born.

Quote:
The open oceans they will be hoplessly outclassed. But in a small enclosed sea like the Mediterranean, they may have a chance.
What do you suggest that they might do in the Mediterranean? If Europe has an sense at all, they would have their naval power and anti-aircraft setup to rip anything coming that route to sheds. How are you suggesting that the Islamic Superstate would manage to control the Med? No, I wouldn't consider Nostradomis as a valid and reliable source, so I'm not responding to that part.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder
If I had command of European forces and was outnumbered 5 to 1, I promise you I can beat back the invasion indefinitely. Any decent commander could.
I agree here any Any decent commander could beat back a foe a 5 to 1, especially with superior tech. What about 20 to 1?
Give them a few generations and Islam might be able to come up with 20 to 1 odds but the numbers ain't there yet! Not by a long shot! And even when they have 20 to 1, a HUGE chunk of that dies in the process of wiping out Inida ... if they even CAN wipe out India. :P :P

Quote:
I'm guestimating that a United Europe, even with help form the USA will be able to field some 250 to 300 division for war time emergency.

I believe that when the time comes (given my population estimate at first post of this thread) the Islamic empire will field between 2000 and 4000 motorized or mechanized divisions.

With this massive army attacking Europe the sheer weight of numbers will be a factor. Constant pressure will be felt all along the front, any breakthroughs will be explioted by enemy division large enough to make up army groups. With the pressure along all along the front the Europeans will be hard pressed to have spare divisions to launch a counter attacks. Even with superior technology fighting an enemy this numerous and this massive may take its toll.

Not only this, Europe will have to worry about those attacking from within at the same time. Even if Europe beats them back you can see the cost to stop this invasion will be very high.
All of this is based on the false belief that Islam HAS massive overwhelming numbers. They don't. Population translates directly into divisions in a time of total war. Europe has approximately 600 million people (Leaving out all former USSR), so you need Islam to hit 6 Billion in population before your estimate adds up right.

Lastly, as previously pointed out, a very very large chunk of what they DO have is inaccessible until they deal with India, one way or another. Even then, Indonesia may very well be completely cut off and be unable to assist ... and there goes 300,000,000 right there.
February 23rd, 2005  
gladius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Gladius, I know you are just ecstatic and all giggly inside to see this thread constantly reviving.
Ecstatic maybe a little, giggly I dunno.
actualy I'm okay with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
I agree that Hitler was significant in motivating Germany, but you are overlooking that Germany was very motivated and driven to excel long before Adolf was born. One dilema that a unifying leader must have an answer for is this: A HUGE segment of your population is not driven nor motivated. How do you turn the whole of Islam into one of the most industrious, scientifically advance and motivated peoples on the planet?? Things can change quickly, but remember, old habits die hard.

On the matter of uniting peoples, Germany's people had been driving for generations for a united Germany long before Bismarck made that a reality. "Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles", the German national anthem, was written when they were still divided into hundreds of kingdoms and it was written with the vision of one day uniting Germany. The drive to be united was there long before Hitler was born.
Yes most of Islam isn't driven or motivated. But guess who hasn't showed up yet. I think you are trying to understand this from a secular point of view, in which case you will never get it. Put yourself in the shoes of someone religious, then picture the one whom you believe is the ultimate holyman of all time has finally come, wouldn't you do anything for him. That is were the motivation will come from.

Anyways they don't have to become the most industrious and scientific people in the planet, not even close to it, nor do I believe that they will be. You don't need to be that to have a large army, remember Saddam Hussien's 4th largest army in the world at one point. They'll simply buy the stuff from the Chinese, Russians, and even the Europeans themselves.

Quote:
What do you suggest that they might do in the Mediterranean? If Europe has an sense at all, they would have their naval power and anti-aircraft setup to rip anything coming that route to sheds. How are you suggesting that the Islamic Superstate would manage to control the Med? No, I wouldn't consider Nostradomis as a valid and reliable source, so I'm not responding to that part.
I thought I'd already discussed this before, they would use vast amounts (tens of thousands) of small vessel equiped with sunburn missles. If the Europeans sink 100 of these in exchnage for a destroyer or cruiser, so what.

Quote:
Give them a few generations and Islam might be able to come up with 20 to 1 odds but the numbers ain't there yet! Not by a long shot! And even when they have 20 to 1, a HUGE chunk of that dies in the process of wiping out Inida ... if they even CAN wipe out India. :P :P
As the Europeans population is getting older, the Islamic world has a very you population at least 50% under 18. In 10 or 20 years this will be a decisive factor. I already discussed this in the very first post.

Wasn't the reason they were importing Muslims to begin with was because of a shortage of a labor force.

Quote:
All of this is based on the false belief that Islam HAS massive overwhelming numbers. They don't. Population translates directly into divisions in a time of total war. Europe has approximately 600 million people (Leaving out all former USSR), so you need Islam to hit 6 Billion in population before your estimate adds up right.

Lastly, as previously pointed out, a very very large chunk of what they DO have is inaccessible until they deal with India, one way or another. Even then, Indonesia may very well be completely cut off and be unable to assist ... and there goes 300,000,000 right there.
Not fighting age population.

The fighting age populations of both civilizations will be drastically different withinh 10 years, again as I already have explained it before.

As far as this goes the Bible does talk about a 200 million man army coming from the Euprathese River, but then again I don't know if we can use this as evidence here. Even without this, if you study it, the numbers are there, as far as military age population goes, it just happens to corelate to what I see happening.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gladius
Think this not possible? Well consider this, while Europe's population is growing older, meaning less people going into the work force than coming out of it. Islamic countries have a population explotion, with very young populations, with an estimated 50% under the age of 18. This is very significant, since this would mean they would be able to recruit large numbers of military age personnel without taking people out of their existing infrastructure or work force which would put a severe strain on their economic output, not so with Europe. In fact if Europe were to recruit say about 30-40 million soldiers for war time emergency, not only would it drain their work force, but it would push the economy to the breaking point. The Islamic empire with around a 700 million pool of young people can recruit about 200 million without too much stress on their economy.
Look! I quoted myself.
February 23rd, 2005  
TBA_PAKI
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Gladius, I know you are just ecstatic and all giggly inside to see this thread constantly reviving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladius
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
What the world of Islam currently lacks right now is unity and motivation. Germany had plenty of that. Ancient Islam did too, so it will be interesting to see what happens next in modern day Islam.
Germany had that unity in Adolph Hitler.

Remember the most important factor in all this, the man who will unite this empire, he will be Emperor, Dictator, Holyman all in one. His word will be comparable to an edict from heaven. Hitler will have nothing on him. This one man will be the unity and motivation that starts all this.
I agree that Hitler was significant in motivating Germany, but you are overlooking that Germany was very motivated and driven to excel long before Adolf was born. One dilema that a unifying leader must have an answer for is this: A HUGE segment of your population is not driven nor motivated. How do you turn the whole of Islam into one of the most industrious, scientifically advance and motivated peoples on the planet?? Things can change quickly, but remember, old habits die hard.

On the matter of uniting peoples, Germany's people had been driving for generations for a united Germany long before Bismarck made that a reality. "Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles", the German national anthem, was written when they were still divided into hundreds of kingdoms and it was written with the vision of one day uniting Germany. The drive to be united was there long before Hitler was born.

Quote:
The open oceans they will be hoplessly outclassed. But in a small enclosed sea like the Mediterranean, they may have a chance.
What do you suggest that they might do in the Mediterranean? If Europe has an sense at all, they would have their naval power and anti-aircraft setup to rip anything coming that route to sheds. How are you suggesting that the Islamic Superstate would manage to control the Med? No, I wouldn't consider Nostradomis as a valid and reliable source, so I'm not responding to that part.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder
If I had command of European forces and was outnumbered 5 to 1, I promise you I can beat back the invasion indefinitely. Any decent commander could.
I agree here any Any decent commander could beat back a foe a 5 to 1, especially with superior tech. What about 20 to 1?
Give them a few generations and Islam might be able to come up with 20 to 1 odds but the numbers ain't there yet! Not by a long shot! And even when they have 20 to 1, a HUGE chunk of that dies in the process of wiping out Inida ... if they even CAN wipe out India. :P :P

Quote:
I'm guestimating that a United Europe, even with help form the USA will be able to field some 250 to 300 division for war time emergency.

I believe that when the time comes (given my population estimate at first post of this thread) the Islamic empire will field between 2000 and 4000 motorized or mechanized divisions.

With this massive army attacking Europe the sheer weight of numbers will be a factor. Constant pressure will be felt all along the front, any breakthroughs will be explioted by enemy division large enough to make up army groups. With the pressure along all along the front the Europeans will be hard pressed to have spare divisions to launch a counter attacks. Even with superior technology fighting an enemy this numerous and this massive may take its toll.

Not only this, Europe will have to worry about those attacking from within at the same time. Even if Europe beats them back you can see the cost to stop this invasion will be very high.
All of this is based on the false belief that Islam HAS massive overwhelming numbers. They don't. Population translates directly into divisions in a time of total war. Europe has approximately 600 million people (Leaving out all former USSR), so you need Islam to hit 6 Billion in population before your estimate adds up right.

Lastly, as previously pointed out, a very very large chunk of what they DO have is inaccessible until they deal with India, one way or another. Even then, Indonesia may very well be completely cut off and be unable to assist ... and there goes 300,000,000 right there.
I can see through your post the sheer level of under-estimation, godofthunder and you know what? it is the first sign of Emotional Defeat in tactical sense through Blindness to open ground realities and possibilites.

Take example of 9/11 Terrorist Attacks on US soil in sensitive regions. What was noticed that "Surprise and Motivation" tactics worked regardless of any military strength.

Apart from this, if any strange event occurs like this one that grabs world-wide media attention. People turn to Bible prophecies and Nostradamus predictions and come up with quatrains that fulfills that particular event, funny isn't it!

And talking about victory against one muslim country is something different. But facing a huge muslim-nation coalition is something serious to be reckoned with. (A simple logic is that unity even among weaker can turn in to considerable strength also)!

As far as unity is concerned, it can be driven through certain factors that involve, Faith, Geo-political situations, Threat level, Motivation and public opinion. Also in the past, a few people with impressive traits managed to did miracles (take example of how Islam spread )!

Also many muslim nations are arming them with new western and chinese weaponry. Thus Tech superiority is not much on the ground but in AIR especially. And Naval blockade in Medi. river will take time and can be countered through swift mobilization and attack tactics. Believe me any military genious can come up with the plan. (Since war requires planning)

As far as about the invasion. Thats a discussion about a future event or possibility. And we won't be present around to witness this game of destruction !

And also do notice that wars are fought with tactics and planning and not just blind faith. Take the possibilility of use of "Tactical Nukes with Surprise and Motivation". This will of-course require deception first!

And talking about India to save Europe is one big mistake. Do you really think that they will be so stupid to put themselves in path of destruction by saving Europe from an invasion. Thats the most un-reliable point. India did ammassed a big army on border with Pakistan in 2002 but finally realizing that this conflict will only bring death and destruction on both sides, simply backed off (the first time in history)!

And not to forget the chinese role in this regard (since they are very good friends of Pakistan)!

Take example of Hitler in WWII. He simply overran most of the Europe and Russia despite realizing the grave situation did not declared war against him until it was invaded.

Thus the best way of achieving victory is through Justise and Peace.
February 23rd, 2005  
rOk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBA_PAKI
And talking about India to save Europe is one big mistake. Do you really think that they will be so stupid to put themselves in path of destruction by saving Europe from an invasion. Thats the most un-reliable point. India did ammassed a big army on border with Pakistan in 2002 but finally realizing that this conflict will only bring death and destruction on both sides, simply backed off (the first time in history)!
Dude, we don't need Indians. Get real...
If EU comes to consencion and indeed this shit happens you'll be waving (happily )a blue flag with 12 gold stars in Islamabad at the end.

You can never again hope that Islam will spread like it did in history...you are weak, disorganised, leaderless, without any true goals....almost like the EU with a difference that we have goals, we have friends, we have money...you don't.
February 23rd, 2005  
Doc.S
 
Quote:
If EU comes to consencion and indeed this shit happens you'll be waving (happily )a blue flag with 12 gold stars in Islamabad at the end.
Well I dont want to spoil anyones day over here - But sincerly I dont think EU could fight themself through a Turkish whorehouse to be honest. Well in the good old days when NATO did have something that tied them togheter, the Soviet Union threat and with U.S presence and missiles to back them up that boosted up their morale Europe was something to count on. Today I see great fissures in the rock that makes Grand Canyon look small from a spaceshuttles point of view.

Heck I can only talk for our own immigrate minister that after the murder and the disturbances in the Netherlands last year told our media about the strategy to face an Islamic uprising in the future. We have to accept this and adjust effected EU members to the new lifestyle. The meeting was between EUs different immigrate ministers and the talks about the problems led to this strategy. Our leaders have allredy layed down their arms and will not fight if there would be any integration problems in the future. I wonder how they would react if they was attackt from the inside and on the same time they hade a couple of million armed Islamic warriors on the borders. Fight? Get real they have allredy given up.

After 9/11 some EU members wanted to make their own military defense alliances outside NATO in a hurry. I wonder why? Can it be so that my instinct tells me that the EU have been something of a dream paradise where France and Germany will fight of an outside enemy with a super diplomacy cannon? I think that TBA_PAKI have some good arguments for what he is pointing at. You dont need state of the art weapons to bring down an enemy that allredy have layed down their arms.

You dont need money to fight an enemy that wont fight or let their soldiers fight. The moral of an Islamic "Unified army" would simply crush Europe just as easy as Adolf Hitler did in 1939-1943. Maby even more easy then Adolf`s soldier did it, It is all in the human mind and the fighting spirit of the Europeans today is terrible low, with a few exceptions. Years of no borders, no danger, no feelings for the nation and cultural life have sent this part of the world to a twilightzone. Kids over here dont even know our own national anthem if you sing it in English.

European soldiers are great warriors but they are constant balance with soft politician point of a knife in the back syndrome. I dont think all this disarmament in Scandinavia is a haphazard event, I just dont buy that crap. A known fact is that the leftwing thinking have opend the gates towards Islam in almost all major countries where we find Islam as the dominate religion. When the extremist`s are finish with Europe we have to start all over again to bring democracy and equality between the sexes, welcome to the backward timemachine. Problem is that I seems to be the only one in Europe that thinks this far.

Cheers:
Doc.S
February 23rd, 2005  
TBA_PAKI
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rOk
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBA_PAKI
And talking about India to save Europe is one big mistake. Do you really think that they will be so stupid to put themselves in path of destruction by saving Europe from an invasion. Thats the most un-reliable point. India did ammassed a big army on border with Pakistan in 2002 but finally realizing that this conflict will only bring death and destruction on both sides, simply backed off (the first time in history)!
Dude, we don't need Indians. Get real...
If EU comes to consencion and indeed this shit happens you'll be waving (happily )a blue flag with 12 gold stars in Islamabad at the end.

You can never again hope that Islam will spread like it did in history...you are weak, disorganised, leaderless, without any true goals....almost like the EU with a difference that we have goals, we have friends, we have money...you don't.
You had not read recent posts of godofthunder, who was optimistic about India to come in the way of predictable invasion of EU. It will definitely not materialize.

As far as your thinking is concerned, don't get too optimistic about other's future. Time is favouring Christians now but in the future it might favour us. Life is like a cycle for anyone and history is evident.

And muslims do have goals but that is kept secret. And about Pakistan, you should know that we are an Atomic and Missile power and have one of the best trained soldiers in the world
February 23rd, 2005  
rOk
 
 
C'mon Doc.S...even you can't really believe that everyone in Europe would just bow down?
About the Turks... I think eventually they'll ally with the west...they already want in and besides what's to keep them in that pit called Middle East.
Of course I didn't mean that the EU would just rally together "out of the blue" and march southeast...something has to happen before that...
And besides you're Sweden, you have to be nice to everyone (neutrality and all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc.S

European soldiers are great warriors but they are constant balance with soft politician point of a knife in the back syndrome. Cheers:
Doc.S
During peacetime...

@TBA_PAKI:
"Time favouring christians"? WTF Time is favouring reasonable, intelligent people...
btw, sorry about the harshness of my reply...I'm not normally like that I just had a bad morning.