"Rights for the Rulers" Versus "Rights for Individuals"

I don't wish to be rude but you are talking out of your rear-end here. Lets just say that its obvious you have never lived abroad. I am an American have been living in France over a decade and I spend long periods of my time in other countries conducting business. I can tell you for a fact how much you are wrong from just about point A to point Z.

Socialism doesn't work? The Europeans would strongly disagree with you. I really wish people would try spending a few years living and working outside the USA before making such ignorant statements based on what other people have told them, not from what they have actually experienced. If socialism is really to blame for all economic woes, the perhaps you can explain why it was Capitalism that brought down the world economy last year? What about the Great Depression. So far Capitalism track record is not so hot. I can tell you for a fact, nobody is lining up to copy the US economic system.

All Liberals came from wealth? Obviously you have never met any. I lean liberal, I am from NYC, some liberals are wealthy, MOST are not. If most liberals came from money do you honestly think they'd care what you do? Personally, I would stay in my enclosed gated community sit back, and watch the conservatives screw over the country with another President Bush or a Palin. The reason I do care is that whenever the conservatives touch the economy they almost always make my situation worse. Want proof: When was the last time a GOP president presented a balanced Budget?

How would you like it if I said all conservatives are uneducated racist ignorant rednecks that date their sister. Are you going accept this as truth too?

All poor people are lazy, don't want to work. Again completely ignorant on the facts. Most poor people on welfare HAVE jobs. Some of them have 3 jobs seven days a week and are still poor. If you think welfare caters to the lazy you have never experienced it, there are easier ways to make money. And speaking about people not having jobs. The Teabaggers, do they have jobs? It sure doesn't seem so because they always seem to be spending their time at protests rather than being at work. For people who accuse other people of not working for a living, they might want to look in the mirror.

With all due respect, all you are doing is pushing ignorance and misinformed stereotypes as fact -sort of like what FOX NEWS does. Go see the world a bit then make your opinion.

George

You missed the point. Its not that there are tax cheats, is that there are a group of the wealthiest Americans who don't feel they have any obligation to pay, that taxes don't apply to them.Its more about EGO than MONEY. They have the capacity to pay, they just don't feel that they should. I watched Warren Buffet (one of the few exceptions to the above rule) argue Against the Bush Tax Cuts in 2001, saying that for him he wouldn't need the taxcut because for him even staying at the higher rate he still would have more money than he knew what to do with.

Helmsey was stupid enough to get caught, but she was far from the only one. These people rack up huge legal bills and pay political homage NOT to pay taxes. These people feel themselves as America's new nobility and the idea that they should have to pay taxes like the peasantry is something their egos won't take. You are doing their work for them.

People in all classes don't repay student loans? No George. Rich people don't have student loans, thats why they are "rich"! When you make $500,000+ a year, 25K a year isnt much of a bite. And perhaps you are aware of it but there are consequences for not paying off student loans. Your credit is f***ed for life, you will have credit agencies up the rear end who will make your life miserable, and eventually you will get sued by the creditor. Thats why almost all people pay off their loans.

Its not class envy, its class warfare. When 5% of US wage earners control 70% of all wealth in America I'd say there is quite a lot to be angry for the Poor and Middle Class who are now struggling. This also answers your second question. Why dont poor feel sorry for rich people? SORRY FOR WHAT? That they don't control 80% of US wealth? My heart bleeds. George I am neither greedy or egotistical. If I was in that 5% I would pay my 40% taxes and keep my mouth shut! I'm Middle Class, pay higher taxes than most Americans at the same income level and I am grateful for what I got. Thats exactly what the rich should think too.
Hmm yup, you did some editing since I 1st looked at your comments. Europeans might like it, but that's what they're used to. Socialist Govt hiring/firing restrictions keeps a lid on expansion because companys know they''l have trouble firing, so they go with limited participation in the expansion. On the other side, a long time adage is when Wall Street catches cold, Europe gets a phnumonia, they just don't seem to do as well. Economy collapsed because of reduced qualifications for home loans due to a Carter Era Law that ACORN insisted the Clinton Admin enforce. So you have loans being made that couldn't possibly be payed off. McCain tried to do something in '05, The Hack Barney Frank shouted him down as a Racist because the head of (Fanny or Freddy?) was black rather than look into it. Didn't stop Frank from bashing Buch/McCain for the collapse that might have been averted. The Depression was caused by the Fed tightening the money supply too much & passage of the Smoot-Hawley Tarriff Law that together strangled the economy. There are people who are rich NOW that don't pay back thier student loans, too inconvienient for them. Helmsley: that's the thing about the Fair Tax, if she spends money, she pays the Tax. No longer could she just not bother to fill out the forms or hide money somewhere. Who said anything about the poor feeling sorry for the rich? "No one rushing to copy US system" Some European & the CHICOMS have said we are spending too much money & headed toword socialism & we need to quit doing that. Stange that Communists are worried that Obama's agenda may wreck thier investments.
 
Lame excuse George. Just man up and admit to yourself you misread and misunderstood my comments. There is no shame in admitting you were wrong. I don't need to play silly editing games as I stand on everything I stated. Its not my problem if your opinions don't hold water.

Its true that the European hiring policies to stymie growth. On the flip side however it also protects the employees when things go sour. You cant find yourself after 20 years on the job suddenly unemployed with mouths to fed and no money to pay the rent. That type of protection is something the US doesn't offer. A hard working employee can literally lose everything in the US if his luck goes bad one day. Just ask the employees of ENRON, they lost their jobs, there pensions, their kids education money, some even lost their homes when they could pay the mortgage. Such situations are impossible in Europe.

As for the "Wall Street Catches a cold..." saying got proved proved totally wrong when Wall Street markets imploded in 2008-2009 while the European markets stayed stable. With the exception of the UK, Europe weathered the economic crisis far better than the US did because Europeans don't like to speculate on risky ventures. Europe is having other economic issues but its not having to do with Wall Street. You are dead wrong to think the European economy hinges on Wall Street.

Your interpretation of the economic meltdown is entertaining but not accurate. For example you convenient left out the part of about the previous administrations reigning in of the Fed, the very organizations that are supposed to be monitoring this sort of thing. Most people would agree that the foundatins lay in both GOP and DEM administrations but they also say that the lack of oversight was the spark that lit the fuse.

Your grasping at straws George. If You dont pay off your student loans your credit goes to hell. How can start a business and become a millionaire if his credit is garbage? In this country lenders and investors are not going to lend you money for a business if you have got a bad credit history. In fact, Its the very first thing they check. Would you borrow money to someone with a history of loan defaults? Its common sense.

In fact you might even have problem getting a job. No one even want to hire you in sectors like Finance where they actually check your credit history during the employment background check. I started a new job a year ago...they CHECKED everything.

Oh please George stop denying history, the spending crisis wasn't started by Obama and you know it. It wasn't Obama that borrowed us into bankruptcy so stop trying to rewrite history. We got into this whole mess because the last jackass wrote tax cuts without bothering to figure out who would pay for them. Then went on and started not one but two wars which he also had no plans to pay for. But somehow Conservatives still seem to think that cutting taxes while increasing spending leads to economic growth. Pity it hasn't actually worked yet.

But rich people dont buy much commodities, that was the WHOLE point of my article you obviously didn't read. The people at FAIR (which is BIPARTISAN, non politically affiliated) make the point that its the middle class that would bare the brunt of the sales taxes because they are the ones that buy those items in bulk. Economics 101, Rich people are not consumers, they invest. It is the middle class that turns the economy not the rich. So a Sales tax falls heaviest on those who buy things. If you honestly think rich people are treated unfairly in America because they are forced to pay high income taxes then why don't you run for office on a "RICH MAN BURDEN" platform? Just don't be surprised if nobody votes for you. Dont you think its any wonder why neither of the major political parties are touching the idea of a FAIR TAX? Even the GOP wouldnt let it pass.
 
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This being Sunday and not having much to do, I ran through the posts on this topic.

Does anyone want to guess how many responses(including this one) were on Topic?

The correct answer is none.:)
 
Lame excuse George. Just man up and admit to yourself you misread and misunderstood my comments. There is no shame in admitting you were wrong. I don't need to play silly editing games as I stand on everything I stated. Its not my problem if your opinions don't hold water.

Its true that the European hiring policies to stymie growth. On the flip side however it also protects the employees when things go sour. You cant find yourself after 20 years on the job suddenly unemployed with mouths to fed and no money to pay the rent. That type of protection is something the US doesn't offer. A hard working employee can literally lose everything in the US if his luck goes bad one day. Just ask the employees of ENRON, they lost their jobs, there pensions, their kids education money, some even lost their homes when they could pay the mortgage. Such situations are impossible in Europe.

As for the "Wall Street Catches a cold..." saying got proved proved totally wrong when Wall Street markets imploded in 2008-2009 while the European markets stayed stable. With the exception of the UK, Europe weathered the economic crisis far better than the US did because Europeans don't like to speculate on risky ventures. Europe is having other economic issues but its not having to do with Wall Street. You are dead wrong to think the European economy hinges on Wall Street.

Your interpretation of the economic meltdown is entertaining but not accurate. For example you convenient left out the part of about the previous administrations reigning in of the Fed, the very organizations that are supposed to be monitoring this sort of thing. Most people would agree that the foundatins lay in both GOP and DEM administrations but they also say that the lack of oversight was the spark that lit the fuse.

Your grasping at straws George. If You dont pay off your student loans your credit goes to hell. How can start a business and become a millionaire if his credit is garbage? In this country lenders and investors are not going to lend you money for a business if you have got a bad credit history. In fact, Its the very first thing they check. Would you borrow money to someone with a history of loan defaults? Its common sense.

In fact you might even have problem getting a job. No one even want to hire you in sectors like Finance where they actually check your credit history during the employment background check. I started a new job a year ago...they CHECKED everything.

Oh please George stop denying history, the spending crisis wasn't started by Obama and you know it. It wasn't Obama that borrowed us into bankruptcy so stop trying to rewrite history. We got into this whole mess because the last jackass wrote tax cuts without bothering to figure out who would pay for them. Then went on and started not one but two wars which he also had no plans to pay for. But somehow Conservatives still seem to think that cutting taxes while increasing spending leads to economic growth. Pity it hasn't actually worked yet.

But rich people dont buy much commodities, that was the WHOLE point of my article you obviously didn't read. The people at FAIR (which is BIPARTISAN, non politically affiliated) make the point that its the middle class that would bare the brunt of the sales taxes because they are the ones that buy those items in bulk. Economics 101, Rich people are not consumers, they invest. It is the middle class that turns the economy not the rich. So a Sales tax falls heaviest on those who buy things. If you honestly think rich people are treated unfairly in America because they are forced to pay high income taxes then why don't you run for office on a "RICH MAN BURDEN" platform? Just don't be surprised if nobody votes for you. Dont you think its any wonder why neither of the major political parties are touching the idea of a FAIR TAX? Even the GOP wouldnt let it pass.
I think the problems were a bit wider than just the UK, & I wasn't actually talking strictly about the Market, but recession. Iceland & Greece come to mind easily.
Lets look @ Bush. I voted for Bush & a Rep controlled Congress to cut Govt, cut spending, cut taxes, cut the deficts, cut, cut, cut. Didn't happen, ended up with a bunch of Big Govt Big Spending @ best Moderate Reps (like what we got with Bush 1), Reps who evidently thought they could buy 40 years of controll of Congress like the Dems did. Not what I had i mind @ all. Think Afganistan fell so easily he thought he could pull off another esy win in Iraq & fumbled the ball big time. Orin Hatch was quoted recently as saying that they didn't worry about paying for the prescription drug benifit, WTF that's not what I elected them to do. That's why they did so bad in the last 2 elections, upset the base & lost a lot of support.
The Dems. Clinton ran as a middle of the road New Democrat with talk of balanced budgets, ect. All that went into the trash can as soon as the polls closed. Clinton said he'd worked as hard as he could & there just wasn't any way to balance the budget. "___ billion $ deficits as far as the eye can see". He steered way Left, even the Dem controlled Congress couldn't pass most of his Agenda like ClintonCare. His 1st 2 yrs were a train wreck. When the Reps took controll they balanced the budget, Clinton vetod it twice, he approved it after polls showed overwhelming support of the people. Now Libs act like he was the mastermind behind it. Benifiting from the Reagan tax cuts the economy was booming & taxes were rolling in, resulting in a balanced budget while Clinton bloated Federal spending while claiming to have reduced the size of Govt. He reduced the # of Govt employees by big cuts in military personnel. Bush was a big disappointment,but I can't see how Gore could have been an improvement. Bush doubled the deficit & Obama has doubled it again. Will he say he bankrupted us to save us from the Bush bankruptcy?
Too bad you aren't here where you could call Boortz & discuss the Fair Tax with him direct. He's said anyone who opposes it either doesn't understand it, or was lied to about it. Will the politicians pass it? Probably not, they'd lose too much Power! They have enormous power in manipulating the Tax Codes to help friends & punish those they don't like. Another reason to scrap the tax system. People spend in proportion to what they make, the rich will be paying the tax on thier purchases like everyone else. 60 minutes/Dateline (?) have done stories on well to do people who haven't payed back thier student loans. One doctor said if he payed it back he'd have to cancell his Bahamas vacations.
 
I don't wish to be rude but you are talking out of your rear-end here. Lets just say that its obvious you have never lived abroad. I am an American have been living in France over a decade and I spend long periods of my time in other countries conducting business. I can tell you for a fact how much you are wrong from just about point A to point Z.

Socialism doesn't work? The Europeans would strongly disagree with you. I really wish people would try spending a few years living and working outside the USA before making such ignorant statements based on what other people have told them, not from what they have actually experienced. If socialism is really to blame for all economic woes, the perhaps you can explain why it was Capitalism that brought down the world economy last year? What about the Great Depression. So far Capitalism track record is not so hot. I can tell you for a fact, nobody is lining up to copy the US economic system.

All Liberals came from wealth? Obviously you have never met any. I lean liberal, I am from NYC, some liberals are wealthy, MOST are not. If most liberals came from money do you honestly think they'd care what you do? Personally, I would stay in my enclosed gated community sit back, and watch the conservatives screw over the country with another President Bush or a Palin. The reason I do care is that whenever the conservatives touch the economy they almost always make my situation worse. Want proof: When was the last time a GOP president presented a balanced Budget?

How would you like it if I said all conservatives are uneducated racist ignorant rednecks that date their sister. Are you going accept this as truth too?

All poor people are lazy, don't want to work. Again completely ignorant on the facts. Most poor people on welfare HAVE jobs. Some of them have 3 jobs seven days a week and are still poor. If you think welfare caters to the lazy you have never experienced it, there are easier ways to make money. And speaking about people not having jobs. The Teabaggers, do they have jobs? It sure doesn't seem so because they always seem to be spending their time at protests rather than being at work. For people who accuse other people of not working for a living, they might want to look in the mirror.

With all due respect, all you are doing is pushing ignorance and misinformed stereotypes as fact -sort of like what FOX NEWS does. Go see the world a bit then make your opinion.

George

Wooohooo, quite a smoking gun pointed my way. Perhaps you are right, I have not lived abroad doing "business" with the locals. My time in Europe, 8 years, was with the US Military. Stationed in Germany, with deployments to Bosnia and Kosovo. (This is a military forum). I have also "lived" abroad in Southwest and Southeast Asia, although with Southeast Asia it was just two deployments in Thailand for training, with 4 years in Korea. I did state that I believe the vast majority of Liberals come from wealth, didn't think that statement would correlate to Conservatives being uneducated Rednecks who date their own sisters. Sorry didn't mean to offend. I should have stated that those Liberals "I have met" come from wealth. Most of them that I have interacted with, here in Texas, are the professors that I met in College and those Attorneys I met in Court, I just never payed much attention to Europeans while I was out drinking, I would agree with any female no matter what her politics. You live in NY City, don't know the rest of your back ground, so I will not make assumptions. I guess each of us have their own ideas on what being wealthy means. I have studied Communism when they were the main enemy. During these studies, Karl Marx, Lenin, Mao, Kim, Ho, most of the Red Faction all came from wealth, most also from the upper strata. But you did catch me on one thing, I am a Redneck, born and raised and proud of it. My father also bent his neck to the Sun plowing as did my Grandfather and et al, so I guess I come from a long line of Rednecks. I have always found it amusing that those from the City have to denigrate those who provide their food, unless NY City has farms in town, again not sure. I don't come from wealth, again I guess wealth is subjective, I entered the Military to further myself and have been somewhat successful, at least compared to my Father and etc, who were Farmhands and worked the land. I did interacted with people, usually those who worked the land, in those areas I was stationed while in Europe. I could always come to a common base, the land, with those "European Rednecks", including Bosnia and Kosovo, farmers have a universal language. Never dated my sister though. Although after the military I worked for a time for Child Protective Services and did many investigations on those who did, always from a City, never Rural. I also don't believe I stated all poor people were lazy, that would mean my father and etc would be lazy, nope never said that. Just stated, albeit poorly, that the Government providing monies to people without them having to work for it, creates an environment of individuals demanding something for nothing and then continuing to foster this by in effect buying their votes. You are right about me not experiencing welfare, although I guess the time I wasn't actually involved in combat, could be considered welfare while I was in the Military, my Daddy always said so. So I guess while you were interacting with those who you did business with in France, I was interacting with those in Guest houses, on farms, or while carrying a gun. Different perspectives I guess, but question, where did Tea Partiers or Baggers as you prefer, come into play? Thank you for the debate, I believe we can all come to a common ground, even if we disagree on certain political ends.
 
CEV

The Boys here are right, this post has gotten too far off topic so ill end here rather than in occur the wrath of the staff. (Staff doesn't like it when topics go off track)

I apologize if I came off heavy handed, obviously we are going to have a difference of opinion. Although I do respect your service I will say that serving overseas as part of a foreign military is really not the same thing (not better, nor worse, its simply different) than living abroad. But we can discuss this on another thread.

Till then, welcome to the forums.
 
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