Rice urges Europe to not help arm China

Xion said:
The US armed the Taliban too, its not all Europe's fault

USA supplied sophisticated weapons to the Taliban when Russia invaded Afghanistan, did you forget that ?
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Xion,
You are mixing up your dates. The US helped the mujahideen via the ISI, but not the Taliban. This group was a purely Pakistani creation, and China was helping the Taliban to lay a fiber optic telecom system in Afghanistan (round the time 9/11 took place).
 
Eh...

Gladius, other news reported as a military exercise to beef up strategic alliance. Air force, navy, marines, and paratroopers of both sides will participate in the training. It is pure military exercise.

Besides, if Moscow complain like Drudge Report reported, it would not publicly condone the anti-session law. I wouldn't get panic as yet. Plus, I don't see the advantages of Russia to complain when China can be its ally quickly compare to the US. The mistrust between Russia and the US is way greater than Russia and China.

And, YES, not all news are trust worthy, take it with grain of salt.
 
gladius said:
As far as China goes heres something more to worry about... i think there maybe genuine concern about not selling sophisticated weapons to China.

REPORT: CHINA, RUSSIA TO 'REHEARSE INVASION OF TAIWAN'
Thu Mar 17 2005 11:02:09 ET

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3rc.htm

The initial plans were to practice operational teamwork in combating terrorism during the exercise. However, Beijing, skillfully changing the format of the exercise, has tried to re-orient the two countries' armies to practicing an invasion of Taiwan.
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Stay on topic ladies and gentlemen. Do not discuss any further about the Taiwan Straight Issue.

Although regarding to Russian and Chinese relations, it appears to me that the Pair seems more closer and stronger compared to Russian and US relations. Boobies was right. After President Bush's comment about President Putin during his EU Visits, it's clear that Russia does not like the US's role in the International Community.
 
Cabal said:
I have posted a clear statement. Please stay away from posting stupid questions. I really don't like stupid questions. If you want to disagree, then clearly disagree with a strong solid but yet respectful assertion.

You look at this issue from a strong Taiwanese point of view. So I actually expect the obvious. However, I look from a German one.

You see, the situation regarding Adv. Weapon Shipments are similar between Mainland China and Taiwan. One threatens to carry on it's independence movement through arms. Another threatens to reclaim the island through arms. Same agenda, same situation.

Speaking of Arms, "political power comes from the barrel of the gun."
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I did not intend for it to be a stupid question. You made a point that to stablize Taiwan-China relationship peacefully, arms packages from the US to Taiwan must be scrapped; and when that happens, China would have no right to purchase arms from the EU, right? So, what is so stupid about your own scenario taking place first, and considering the reaction from China?

If you thought my question was stupid, then my guess is you know China would not stop the military build-up even if the US stops selling arms to Taiwan. Therefore bringing that argument into this discussion to strengthen the case for China's urge to buy EU weapons is not entirely appropriate. But like you said, I am from Taiwan and you are from Germany, we are each for our own benefits and no one is going to come out wrong.
 
Zyca...

Didn't TW enjoy over 50 years of arm and rearm from Uncle Sam and some other European countries? So, the TW governmet enjoyed 50 years ahead of the game, and still does, but expect China not do the same at present time?

Did China announce any invasion plans or anti-session laws before TW's self-proclaim Independence? Wouldn't be prudent for TW to work out the plans with EU, the US, and rest of the world to pressure China, instead of jumping guns with backing of the US and Japan only?

At this point of time, TW's Democratic party is stirring up hornet's nest with no regard of TW people welfare and global peace measure. Don't you agree any major political moves of present time, will involve other countries besides good old mainland and China? If so, please don't rely on the US and Japan only, because, it makes the US and Japan look like bullies in front of their allies.
 
Boobies...

I wished Taiwan enjoyed 50 years of head start in the game. China had always been a big influence in the past (still is), I think you and I both know China have had its success deterring arms deals going through. It's not like Taiwan was free to purchase stuff; and it wasn't like other countries were free to sell stuff, etiher.

China did not announce invasion plans (does anyone ever do, anyway?), but is adding the number of missiles targeting Taiwan, and beefing up big time! China's military strength is exceeding (or already exceeded) its need for defence. There are signs indicating that an invasion is materializing. Taiwan is NOT recognized by anyone in the EU... the US and Japan are more directly involved, therefore... (when you cry, you gotta find the right audience...)

It's more like "majority of people in Taiwan" is stirring up hornet's nest with no regard to their own lives... people vote for president directly and people vote for legislators too; in 2004 the majority of the Taiwanese wanted DPP to lead, but later also wanted the opposition to hold more seats in legislation (promptly stopped DPP from changing ROC to Taiwan, and now deterring the arms purchase). And come on, other countries must be involved because of who? Taiwan has enjoyed sovereignty in the past and in the present, if not for China Taiwan would long have become an independent and free country... who's the bully here?
 
Gentlemen, behave yourselves and stay on topic. There will be no flame wars here, and if you are unable to use the "report post" function instead of attempting to deal with situations yourselves by flaming, please contact one of the moderators and we will do our best to provide you with the necessary one-on-one training for finding and using that button. Thank you.
 
removed

anyway back to topic:

the chinese diplomat minister laughed when a reporter asked about the weapons bann. he said: why should we buy them?:

mod edit: After what Redneck said, you shouldn't have posted anything off topic. If you continue to ignore the rules as well as the mods, you will reveive a temp ban
 
So...

Zyca, we have fundamental differences in ownership of TW. You can argue TW was never in any association with China from history to present, while many others disagree with your notion. Some also argue that China relinquished its rights of TW when Communist took over. I don't believe in changing of political system can determine legal separation of certain province or state from its original map.

Many of you also played the scenario if KMT won the war. And you agree that TW would still belong to KMT China. Once again, if the role reversed, Communists retreated to TW, what do you think KMT and its allies would do to Communist TW? It is easy to change rules in the middle of nowhere to suit certain interests, no?
 
Urbanboy said:
removed

anyway back to topic:

the chinese diplomat minister laughed when a reporter asked about the weapons bann. he said: why should we buy them?:

mod edit: After what Redneck said, you shouldn't have posted anything off topic. If you continue to ignore the rules as well as the mods, you will reveive a temp ban
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Can China produce it own weapons?? :roll:
 
It's not to be underestimated but it is behind the US and Europe in terms of the cutting edge technology.
Believe me, if China can buy they WILL buy.
 
Hmmmm....

Everybody wants to buy cutting edgy stuffs, no? Why argue the obvious. You buy what you are not good at and learn from these purchased items. It's been done throughout history.

Urbanboy, if China in no need of weapons, why bothered with the arm ban.
 
We're trying to do something to urbanboy something that we've done to countless members of this board in the past... prove them the obvious. I won't name anyone but I think most people who've been here a while knows who I'm talking about.
 
Re: So...

Boobies said:
Zyca, we have fundamental differences in ownership of TW. You can argue TW was never in any association with China from history to present, while many others disagree with your notion. Some also argue that China relinquished its rights of TW when Communist took over. I don't believe in changing of political system can determine legal separation of certain province or state from its original map.

Many of you also played the scenario if KMT won the war. And you agree that TW would still belong to KMT China. Once again, if the role reversed, Communists retreated to TW, what do you think KMT and its allies would do to Communist TW? It is easy to change rules in the middle of nowhere to suit certain interests, no?
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I am going to take the mod's advice and stay away from off-topic. If we find another topic specifically dealing with this we shall try to discuss more. Your last question should direct to both China and Taiwan, as both are changing rules (adding laws, etc.). But you are right, changing rules to suit interests seem to be a rather popular strategy :)
 
1. euro weapons are prob gonna cost alot of money, why buy when we could make our own

2. production of weapons by one's own country's industrial might presents a greater national feeling in soldiers and civilians alike

3. the bann on euro weapons is a slap in the face, it is a barrier between chinese and euro contact, without this bann the communications and realtionship sbetween euro and china will greatly improve.

4. euro weapons arent very compatiable with the current systems, besides a great diversity, or too much diversity in weapons is almost as bad as nondiverse source of weapons
 
Ok...

Urban, I don't agree with you. No matter how much China can produce, it does not prove that China has proficiencies and capabilities to produce tier one weapons. And it is always wise to learn from others because you may not have what it takes to achieve competitive advantages (economics/business). China has the bodies and good if not excellent trainings, yet it lacks sophisticated equipments to reach the top state.

The US, Britain, and Israel (not mentioning other countries because limited knowledges, sorry) all have top notch trainings from real-life combats and they are the most combat efficient militaries in the world. With these said, their militaries still credit the importance of sophisticated and precise equipments along with trainings. China is lack of these elements. I am sure China wants to buy EU's weapon system to improve its current state and become somewhat closer in capabilities with the US, Britain, Israel, and other top notch militaries.

Yes, Euro weapons cost more, but it has better qualities and capabilities that China cannot attain at this present time.

National feelings of self produced systems (currently, lot of self-made systems = sub par) can lead a mighty army to its demize (Qing Dynasty).

To purchase European weapon doesn't mean replace current systems, rather, learning from purchased weapons to improve China's current systems.

Zyca, once again, changing of political system does not give rights to certain state or province right to seperate or declare independence from original soverign. Maybe American civil war share the same light in a small way (not telling everybody to pick a political system at this time).
 
lol, i never mentioned this
Urban, I don't agree with you. No matter how much China can produce, it does not prove that China has proficiencies and capabilities to produce tier one weapons.
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to understand diplomacy, you must understand the topnotch piority of a country's production capabilties and buying capabilties

if buying of euro weapons will be done, it will be stategic

it imporves trading relationships


confuncious one said: ones own is better than a loan

in other words, ur own asseets are better than someone else's help or grants


china is a big country, it needs to nationalize its weapons if we were to go higher in the world stage, buying foreign weapons should be kept min and only used for testing, upgrading and tech extracting,...
 
"in other words, ur own asseets are better than someone else's help or grants"

No it's not.
If their quality far exeeds your own, then your own assets aren't as good as someone else's. Besides, when you buy, you're OWNING it. You're not borrowing it for the weekend.
 
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