Replacing the M-14, M-16, M-4, XM-8 et al

I think the best caliber to switch, if a switch must happen at all is the 6.5mm Grendel. It has better short range performence then the 5.56mm and better long range then the 7.62mm. It could be a universal caliber for the army. I'd imagine it would simplify logistics a lot to just supply 6.5mm then two calibers.

Intercepter body armor will stop both 7.62 russian and nato
 
Koz said:


Intercepter body armor will stop both 7.62 russian and nato

With SAPI. But even with SAPI I'm not taking Point Blanks word and jumping in front of an SKS or a FAL just to prove it for them.
 
I like the F2000's modularity:

f2000_infantryman.jpg
 
I think the F2000 is a very aestetically pleasing gun and I'd imagine very ergonomic. But I don't know anything about its actual capabilities.
 
03USMC said:
Do what? Whats the "Short Assault Rifle varient"? the 7.62X39? Hate to tell you this but most modern body armor outside of special purpose bunker shields and entry vests will not deflect a 7.62 Nato or a 7.62 X 39 round.
Used the wrong word, sorry. Anyway, last I checked, the SAPI plates will stop 7.62x39 rounds. I never said it would stop NATO 7.62, I said the 7.62x51 round was too powerful to be effectively fired on full-auto by an assault-rifle sized weapon, as evidenced by the M-14.
 
When looking at rifle ammunition you should be looking at distance, accuracy, knockdown power, and penetration.

Bulldogg said it before me. We have weapon systems already designed for full auto fire. A rifle round should be concerned with disabling an enemy quickly and at distance.
 
c/Commander said:
Used the wrong word, sorry. Anyway, last I checked, the SAPI plates will stop 7.62x39 rounds. I never said it would stop NATO 7.62, I said the 7.62x51 round was too powerful to be effectively fired on full-auto by an assault-rifle sized weapon, as evidenced by the M-14.

Only M2 AP/L-IV (Armor Peircing Rifle) would stop a 7.62x51mm round.
 
(Sigh) Zander, could you please learn to do an internet search? We all have access to the same info and images that you do. Just type the info that you want into a search engine, and you will get all that you want to know.

Any rifle cartridge is a compromise. We could design a rifle that has the ballistics of the .50 BMG round, make it around 8 millimetres, make it light enough to carry, and so on, but then, the only rifle that would be able tro fire it would be a .338 lapua! Do you want to carry more ammo, or do you want to carry less ammo that is more effective? Only when you have made this decision can you decide what calibre you should adopt. Way back when, when I was a spritely young lad, I liked to go out and about on exercises with my FN and the six magazines of 7.62mm ammo that they gave me. In addition, being the careful type, I kept four others in my pack, just in case. That gave me a capacity of 200 rounds, although I was supposed to only have 120. Today, by comparison, Canadian Forces soldiers have 6 mags of thirty rounds per man, giving them 180. Now if they do what I did, putting 4 more in their packs, (I would)they would have three hundred, and those three hundred weigh about the same as the two hundred that I used to carry. Now, what about the other calibres? Would the adoption of the 6.5mm also mean that each man can carry less ammo for those quick firing automatic assault rifles? How much ammo do you want to carry, and seriously, how much ammo can you carry? Food for thought...

Dean.
 
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zander_0633 said:
Hey any more pics on the F2000?
No problem; here's the F2000 LSW/Marksman version:

f2000_marksman.jpg


Here's the F2000 crewman version:
f2000_crewman.jpg


I should say that you're not going to find these pictures on Google, because I've Photoshopped them from the standard F2000 :-D (you might notice the first pic of the F2000 with grenade launcher has a longer than standard barrel as well).
 
Doug97 said:
I should say that you're not going to find these pictures on Google, because I've Photoshopped them from the standard F2000 :-D (you might notice the first pic of the F2000 with grenade launcher has a longer than standard barrel as well).

True, but if you google or yahoo or msn search the terms FN Herstal or FN 2000, you'll get a lot of unphotoshopped original manufacturers images, which is what most people want. There are so many good sources of information out there, and I just find that when someone repetitively asks for info or images that all of us, including the asker can easily get, it tends to send the threads off on wild tangents. I like to avoid that. 'nuff said, I'll shut up now.

Dean.
 
Dean said:
Do you want to carry more ammo, or do you want to carry less ammo that is more effective?
Dean.

I think i would go with the more effective one!!! Because if you hit anyone with the 7.62 he will go DOWN. With the 5.56 you are able to carry 300 rounds that have the same weight as 200 of 7.62. But with the 5.56 you need to hit your target twice, with double taps or a burst to stop your new friend to go on. With the 7.62 the old slogan "One shot, one kill" fits again. Ok, maybe not "one shot" but "one hit, one kill". Ok, you can´t allways hit your target with the first,second or third shot, but thats the same with every caliber and with the 7.62 you don´t have to hit your target a second or third time. So if we now take the 300 and divide it with 2 for the DT´s or two hits you need, we have 150 attempts. With a burst that is 3 rounds(we don´t have a burst mode at our weapons, we have to make bursts ourselfs) you only have 100.
So thats what i said in some posts before, give me a G3 with the same sights as the G36 or now the G36A1(improved sights and backup sights) and i´m good to go!!!

Greetings Joker

P.S.
There are so many good sources of information out there, and I just find that when someone repetitively asks for info or images that all of us, including the asker can easily get
I agree with you Dean. And in this thread is not the only one where it happend.http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18198 He´s a quick poster. From December 05 till now(2 month) 489 posts!!! Thats hard.
 
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Joker said:
if you hit anyone with the 7.62 he will go DOWN. But with the 5.56 you need to hit your target twice, with double taps or a burst to stop your new friend to go on. With the 7.62 the old slogan "One shot, one kill" fits again.
It sounds to me like you're saying that it is impossible to kill someone with a single 5.56mm round, and guaranteed with a 7.62mm. The difference between the 2 rounds is not as great as that ...
 
zander_0633 said:
ha, I think you can practical;ly find them any where and everywhere on the internet!
Pictures of the F2000 are all over the internet. Pictures of the F2000 that I have Photoshopped are not.
 
Doug97 said:
It sounds to me like you're saying that it is impossible to kill someone with a single 5.56mm round, and guaranteed with a 7.62mm. The difference between the 2 rounds is not as great as that ...

No, not impossible!!! If you are lucky and hit the right spot or wait long enough than its possibel. But if your new friends comming after you and you have to hit everyone 2 or 3 times before he stops coming after you or shooting at you than you have a serious problem!!! As a matter of fact the 7.62 has more stopping power which the 5.56 don´t has. Or why you think that so many soldiers and if i remember right a lot of SF say that they have to hit there targets to often maybe 2 or 3 times bevor they stop coming at them? Thats why SF (Don´t know why only SF and not all soldiers) get this new xxgrains heavyer round. And thats 1 reason why they talk about the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC. Because of the Knock down power.

Greetz Joker
 
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Hence, M-16A4, with 3-round burst. Better than a spray-and-pray full-auto weapon that'll jump out of your hands when you fire (with a 7.62x51 cartridge, that is).
 
Joker said:
No, not impossible!!! If you are lucky and hit the right spot or wait long enough than its possibel. But if your new friends comming after you and you have to hit everyone 2 or 3 times before he stops coming after you or shooting at you than you have a serious problem!!! As a matter of fact the 7.62 has more stopping power which the 5.56 don´t has. Or why you think that so many soldiers and if i remember right a lot of SF say that they have to hit there targets to often maybe 2 or 3 times bevor they stop coming at them? Thats why SF (Don´t know why only SF and not all soldiers) get this new xxgrains heavyer round. And thats 1 reason why they talk about the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC. Because of the Knock down power.


Greetz Joker

US SF are issed nothing that regular soldiers aren't, they just have the ability to use any weapon they choice too.
 
Cadet Seaman said:
US SF are issed nothing that regular soldiers aren't, they just have the ability to use any weapon they choice too.

:bang: OOOOOhhhhhhhhh boy :bang:

Ever heard about the 77 grain round called Mk 262 Mod.0 and 1 ?????
No??? Than :read:
The simplest approach to improving the combat potential of 5.56mm weapons is to increase bullet weight. This has been done on a limited scare by special operations forces, which have used Mk262 competition ammo in the mountains of Afghanistan. The 77-grain open tip match bullet reportedly is effective when used against unprotected enemy personnel

The U.S. Marine Corps, responding to reports from their troops, are investigating whether they should replace the current 62 grain bullet, used in the 5.56mm round fired by the M-16 and M-4 rifle, with a heavier bullet. Since last Summer, the marines have been making the heavier, 77 grain bullet (normally only issued to Force Recon and commando troops) available to commanders, to use in place of the rounds with the 62 grain bullet. However, only six percent of the 10.6 million 5,56mm rounds of ammo the marines have in Iraq and Afghanistan, are the heavier 77 grain version. The debate over the effectiveness of the NATO standard 62 grain bullet (and all 5.56mm) ammo has been going on for decades, and has only intensified since 2002 (when it was used a lot in Afghanistan). The marines and the army are working together on the problem, and will present their findings early next year.
The problem with the 5.56mm round was that it was not designed to take down man sized targets (or animal equivalents like white tailed deer, or black bears), and is less effective in blasting through walls and vehicles during urban fighting. When first introduced, it was intended for use by draftees, who were often in need of automatic fire capability (because so few were marksmen). This meant troops had to be able to carry more ammo, thus the utility of the 5.56mm round. The 5.56mm bullet could wound, or kill with a head or torso shot. But a determined enemy was often not stopped by 5.56mm fire. Today, all the infantry are volunteers, much better trained to hit targets with single shots, and increasingly demanding a bigger bullet for doing that.

I hope you belive me now!!! Or should i give you the Url´s??? Or better should i find a SF operator who was issued with this round so that you belive me???????

Look i am german, and all sources that i´ve read were in english, so i think it must be alot easyer for you to find such things than it is for me!!!!
Do you know how hard it is to find, read and understand such artikels in a foreign language??? I think no!!!!

And BTW, why you don´t belive me?
I´m soooooo :sick: of it!!!

c/Commander said:
Hence, M-16A4, with 3-round burst. Better than a spray-and-pray full-auto weapon that'll jump out of your hands when you fire (with a 7.62x51 cartridge, that is).
Yeah you are right full auto with 7.62 is not the best choice. Thats why we get teached to make 3 round bursts when switch to full auto mode from basic training on. But never was a friend of bursts (except on MG3), i preferred single fire mode for distance! Easyer to hit and control!! You don´t have to "spray and pray" with G3 thats a waste of Ammo. Spray and pray is used with 9mm or 5.56. They are easyer to control because they don´t have so much recoil.

@ Doug97
Hope now you belive me that you need DT´s or more hits to take enemys down with the m855 ball??? And if you search on the internet for "Mk 262" you find more sources that will tell you the same!!

Greetings Joker
 
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