Remember the other victims of 9/11 on this anniversary

[perseus]

"So, let’s imagine how [the US September 11th attacks] could have been worse for example. Suppose that on September 11, Al-Qaeda had bombed the White House and killed the President, instituted a murderous, brutal regime which killed maybe 50,000 to 100,000 people and tortured about 700,000, set up a major international terrorist center in Washington, which was overthrowing governments all over the world, and installing brutal vicious neo-Nazi dictatorships, assassinating people. Suppose he called in a bunch of economists, let’s call them the 'Kandahar Boys' to run the American economy, who within a couple of years had driven the economy into one of the worst collapses of its history. Suppose this had happened. That would have been worse than 9/11, right? But it did happen. And it happened on 9/11. That happened on September 11, 1973 in Chile. - Noam Chomsky

In 1970 President Salvador Allende won the Chilean election despite the United States spending around $430,000 on an anti-Allende propaganda campaign. Soon after hearing news of his win, Allende signed a Statute of Constitutional Guarantees, which stated that he would follow the constitution during his presidency. The first year of the Socialist Allende Government registered economic improvement; the GDP increased 8.6 percent, inflation decreased from 34.9 percent in 1970 to 22.1 percent, and industrial production increased 12 percent.

However, Mr Allende's Socialist socioeconomic government agenda was opposed by the rich and the U.S. which exerted diplomatic, economic, and covert pressure upon Chile's elected socialist government. Therefore, U.S. President Richard Nixon ordered the CIA to depose President Allende in 1970, immediately after assuming office, with Project FUBELT.

Once Chile was plagued with inflation the United States conducted a campaign to deepen the crisis. Chilean economist Jacobo Schatan writes, "It was clear that the scarcity had been manipulated for political reasons, to create a climate favourable to both a coup and, subsequently, the total change of the economic system.

Onthe 11th September 1973, the government of President Salvador Allende was overthrown by the military in a coup d’état. Some 130,000 people were arrested in a three-year period, the dead and disappeared numbered thousands in the first months of the military government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Chile

The official US policy is confirmed by these statements.

"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." — Henry Kissinger

"Not a nut or bolt shall reach Chile under Allende. Once Allende comes to power we shall do all within our power to condemn Chile and all Chileans to utmost deprivation and poverty." — Edward M. Korry, U.S. Ambassador to Chile, upon hearing of Allende's election.

"Make the economy scream [in Chile to] prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him" — Richard Nixon, orders to CIA director Richard Helms on September 15, 1970

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/ch26-01.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

 

[GG9909]

The height of the Cold War? :-? A communist state so near us could not be allowed but at the expense of destroying the country and people as a whole is not digestible.

 

[perseus]

Seems like the majority wan't to forget this one from the number of responses!

However, is history repeating itself, think of the pressure the US is placing on leftist South American countries. Socialism is a dirty word in the US (and most of Europe) as we can see from the attempts to reform the health service. That is unless it's applied to bailed out failed financial instititions where it is in vogue!

 

[03USMC]

Was the Pinoche regieme in Chile brutal? Yes it was. Did it have the backing of the US? Yes it did. However given the time period Latin America was being used as a pawn by both sides in the cold war. Allende was being backed by the Soviets via Cuba so there was more to it than you are alluding to. As far as current Latin American soicalist leaders, Chavez, Morales,Oretega and the now deposed Zavalla or whatever his name is, the current administration seems not be putting any pressure on them to the extent of backing them about Honduras.

 

[MontyB]

Seems like the majority wan't to forget this one from the number of responses!

However, is history repeating itself, think of the pressure the US is placing on leftist South American countries. Socialism is a dirty word in the US (and most of Europe) as we can see from the attempts to reform the health service. That is unless it's applied to bailed out failed financial instititions where it is in vogue!

Personally I am a fan of forgetting the whole Cold War period primarily because it mainly consisted of two countries meddling in the affairs of the rest of the world to gain power and being prepared to destroy a sizable chunk of the world in the process.

 

[perseus]

Chile 1973 - The "First" 9/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_iuC2A5kuY

 

[03USMC]

Nice little film complete with the old Chilano communist party music . But it still does'nt address the situation as a whole. Everyone knows Pinoche was backed by the US. N o surprises there. Yet you and that little film leave out the Soviet Bloc involvement. As has been stated the cold war was two super powers extending their spheres of influence. It was a bad time for alot of countries all over the world.

 

[Partisan]

Nice little film complete with the old Chilano communist party music . But it still does'nt address the situation as a whole. Everyone knows Pinoche was backed by the US. N o surprises there. Yet you and that little film leave out the Soviet Bloc involvement. As has been stated the cold war was two super powers extending their spheres of influence. It was a bad time for alot of countries all over the world.

OK so I'm a big fan of the Law of Unintended Consequenes. 03 can you please be realistic as to how much of a threat that Chile was / is to the USA, is it on a par to West Germany during the cold war? It could have potentially been a launching pad for communism in S America, but equally that message couyld've failed.

No one can predict the future, but how many of our current "world" leaders actually review what has happened in the past and take it into account? What would happen if the west had not sponsored the Taliban against USSR, Israel had not helped to sponsor Hamas?

I find it amusing that the superpowers are quite happy to fight proxy wars in other countries, but then adopt a hurt attitude when those countries say that they don't like being the battleground. But then this reflects the trend of subcontracting combat - a la Blackstone, or whatever they're called today.

 

[03USMC]

Be realistic? What you think I condone or support the policies in regards to Latin America during the cold war? I could give you a laundry list of BS that started in JFK'S Administration and went thru my era with El Sal and Nic. What do you you want a mea culpa?

The only damn thing I' m asking is that both sides be told. It wasn't one sided and both sides screwed the locals for their own ends. What have I been saying that leads to believe I don' t understand that?

 

[perseus]

Note how the word 'communism' has crept in as a weapon to get people to think 'oh no all that Stalinist Soviet oppressive stuff. A common mistake is to confuse Socialism, the economic system, with Communism, the political system.

Socialism is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the economy works. Democracy is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the government works. "Democracy," said Marx, "is the road to socialism."

Communism is conservative. Fewer and fewer people (preferably just the Party Secretary) have any say in how the economy works. Republicans are conservative. Fewer and fewer people people controlling the Party figurehead have any say in how the government works.

 

[Del Boy]

Yeah right - "socialism is liberal" . Like the Nazis and just about every similar regime, springing from socialist roots.

And remember that although there were 2 superpowers throughout the cold war, it is likely that all would now be communist/socialist if it were not for the defence by USA and its sacrifices.

As I said when I first appeared here, we are now living amongst ingrates.

That's my message, and God Bless America.

 

[George]

Note how the word 'communism' has crept in as a weapon to get people to think 'oh no all that Stalinist Soviet oppressive stuff. A common mistake is to confuse Socialism, the economic system, with Communism, the political system.

Socialism is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the economy works. Democracy is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the government works. "Democracy," said Marx, "is the road to socialism."

Communism is conservative. Fewer and fewer people (preferably just the Party Secretary) have any say in how the economy works. Republicans are conservative. Fewer and fewer people people controlling the Party figurehead have any say in how the government works.

That is a strange definition of Conservative. Here Conservatives want small unintrusive government & personal responsibilty, strong defence, low taxes. ltberals want big intrusive goverrnment, run by themselves, in the form of the Nanny State, because they know the people are incapable with out thier guidance, taxes as high as nessesary to provide the people with what they need. Socialism to them is ok, where the businesses are privatly owned but basicly controled by the enlightened ones. The Socialist Party USA said in 1944 they really didn't need to field anymore candidates where the Democratic Party had adopted all of thier positions. Libertarian Party has claimed the lineage of classic Liberalism from the Teddy Roosevely era. As much personal freedom & as little govt as possible. Decriminalisation/legalization of drugs & prostitution, free trade with all Countries, regardless of view. No overseas military involvment. Do nothing untill the Barbarians are literally crossing the border.
There are Right & Left wing dictatorships, but i think @ that point they curve around to the point there's not much difference there.
The US supported the Mujahideen against the USSR in Afghanistan, the Taliban is a later group that some rumors say was created by Pakistani Intelligence to try to make A-Stan a puppet country under Pakistan's control.

 

[03USMC]

I think that the Cold War has become an abstract thought for the younger generation Del. It isn't now and never was real for them.They never had to deal with it so in their minds it's a non argument.

 

[perseus]

As far as current Latin American soicalist leaders, Chavez, Morales,Oretega and the now deposed Zavalla or whatever his name is, the current administration seems not be putting any pressure on them to the extent of backing them about Honduras.

US forces seem to be active in the region and Chavez has responded

Chavez in $2bn Russian arms deal

Russia has agreed to lend Venezuela over $2bn (£1.2bn) to buy weapons, President Hugo Chavez has said.

The credit will be used to purchase nearly 100 tanks and a series of anti-aircraft rocket systems from Russia. In his weekly TV address, Mr Chavez said the weapons were intended to boost Venezuela's defensive capacity. The deal comes as tensions grow between Venezuela and Colombia over Bogota's plan to allow the US access to several military bases there.

Colombia says the US forces will help in the war against drugs and left-wing guerrillas, and will not destabilise the region.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8253822.stm

 

[perseus]

Here Conservatives want small unintrusive government & personal responsibilty, strong defence, low taxes.

Unfortunately this means that the country becomes effectively run by businesses leaders since no-one dare challenge them in case they take their business elsewhere or the stock price collapses and everyones pension suffers.

As my rather impoverished friend who drives around all day for a pittance, he says if real socialists get in, the business might move abroad and I may loose my job. This is what happens in a laissez faire capitalist economy, once they are in charge they have a stranglehold on the population!

All what capitalism does is swap a central government (which may or may not be working in the interests of the people) for a series of local undemocratic authoritarian regimes who look after a few at the top and rule the common man, they are called businesses!

 

[perseus]

Yeah right - "socialism is liberal" . Like the Nazis and just about every similar regime, springing from socialist roots.

Its a bit rich comparing Nazis with socialists. The Nazi party were the ultimate undemocratic government. They don't call the National parties (eg. BNP) right wing for nothing.

If you support the actions of the US against Chile (which it seems you are) you are against democracy however you weave it.

 

[wolfen]

I think that the Cold War has become an abstract thought for the younger generation Del. It isn't now and never was real for them.They never had to deal with it so in their minds it's a non argument.

You say "Cold War" and nobody cares what we did or where we did it. A lot of people now days have no clue how close we weer to a total thermonuclear war.

Heres a hint for anybody who has no idea, If the President of the U.S and the president of the USSR hadn't had that little red Phone there would be no terrorists, no Iraq war, no arguments, no Obama, nothing........................ just a lot of roaches.

 

[A Can of Man]

The article also tries to tell how this Communism might have worked in Chile. New Communist countries tend to do pretty well economically. They just never seem to be able to keep it up and then their economy goes into the red and it just gets worse and worse.
North Korea would be a typical case. You know that North Korea used to be more wealthy than South Korea? Back in the 60's, the North Koreans would be making fun of South Koreans for not having enough to eat. Tables started to turn irreversably in the 70's. It's not an exception to the rule, that is pretty much the rule.
The way Communism manages to buy itself into a country is very simple.
1) You promise something that is impossible. Use the lower classes' hatred against the rich to gain their support.
2) Because there are more poor people than rich people, you will win any election. So where there is a large middle class, it's hard to succeed as a real Communist.
3) You steal from the rich and you give back a bit to the poor.
4) You now take from the poor stating that posessions are not allowed per Communist doctrine.
5) No one owns anything so they have no power. The government has all the power. Despotic dictatorship is only a personal decision away.

 

[Partisan]

I think that the Cold War has become an abstract thought for the younger generation Del. It isn't now and never was real for them.They never had to deal with it so in their minds it's a non argument.

For me the possibility of a 3rd World War wasn't abstract, but I have to say that I regarded it with a resigned attitude. Living in and around military bases my thought was that I would have approximately 3-5 minutes notice about my imminent decease, so why worry about it. Nowadays because the perceived threat is not from nuclear powers, but from assymetrical groups, such as Al Queada. So the threat of destruction has been salami sliced down, you can still die but the odds have decreased, although the threat has increased! So I think that the youth of today (who always believe themselves immortal) say what the hell - too much other stuff to worry about, death, that's for someone else!

 

[perseus]

The article also tries to tell how this Communism might have worked in Chile. New Communist countries tend to do pretty well economically. They just never seem to be able to keep it up and then their economy goes into the red and it just gets worse and worse.

Perhaps it may be something to do with the dominant economic powers cutting them off and tightening the economic screws as was suggested in the quotes. Then again we are talking about Socialism here anyway.

Socialist and Communist goverments have always been restricted by having to work in a market based system. Try something radical and your currency will get hit, once again the dominant economic paradigm tends to whittle out dissent and becomes self fulfilling.