Remember the other victims of 9/11 on this anniversary

That's funny.
The USSR and China were also Communist countries that really had no reason to be in such piss poor shape. The USSR had immense land, oil and timber. The Chinese had an almost unlimited supply of labor. Then you had Vietnam which also had natural resources notably rubber. You had a large collection of Communist countries which had more than enough resources to have their own economy going except there was only one problem: they didn't believe in the free market.
A market based system is not some kind of thing that is imposed. It's actually the natural state of things. This natural way of doing things obviously also needs to be tamed in order not to get out of control.
Having your currency go down the toilet after rejecting capitalism wholesale is a pretty obvious outcome.
Communism had Russia, China and a lot of other countries. You could argue that capitalism was cut off economically from Communism. And it did just fine.
 
But how the Nazis marketed via a name and how they acted were two different things, they could attract a lot more voters if they were appealing to the common man, hence the name socialist in the name. Regarding the classical definitions

The terms far right and radical right have been used by different people in conflicting ways.[17] The term far right is most often used to describe nationalist, religious extremist and reactionary groups as well as fascism and Nazism.[18][19][20][21] The BBC has called politician Pim Fortuyn's politics (Fortuynism) far right because of his policies on immigration and Muslims.[22] The term far right has been used by some, such as National Public Radio, to describe the rule of Augusto Pinochet in Chile.[23][24] Left-wing publication New Left Review called Ronald Reagan's policies "radical right".[25] The US Department of Homeland Security defines right-wing extremism as hate groups who target racial, ethnic or religious minorities and may be dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.[26]
Right-wing populism is a combination of ethno-nationalism with anti-elitist populist rhetoric and a radical critique of existing political institutions.[27][28][29][30] Some associate ethnic nationalism with the right.[27][31] According to scholars of fascism, there are both left and right influences on fascist ideology. They argue that fascism is a search for a third way among all these views.[32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40] Roger Griffin claims that fascist movements have become more monolithically right-wing, and fascism has become intertwined with the radical right.[41][42]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

From mid-19th century, 'left' would increasingly refer to various forms of socialism and communism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

Fascism like Green politics is really not classically left or right in my opinion. However, one could simplify political parties into two main groups. 1) the left Parties which provide genuine power to the masses via voting power and trade unionship and 2) the right, parties which restrict power to a few whether this be via a dictatorship by restricting voting power or cooperate power by making this theoretical voting power largely meaningless by supplying the central party with funding and marketing skills. The last technique has been so powerful (in making the public believe that socialism and particularly communism are a dirty traitorous words) no mainstream left wing party now exists in the UK or US.
 
Last edited:
You are right. More and more I recognise that I am becoming something of a dinosaur; all those situations, particularly as far back as 1940's , which were in the public domain taken as read and accepted as common knowledge, tend to raise eyebrows now, and have to emphasised or proven all over again.

I've got used to it, and actually I am quite reconciled to the fact that I am now part of the remnants of a WW11 generation.

Glory days.
 
I'm the museum piece! Right wing has been in vogue since the 80s.

Could you please let me know where these would be so I can move there? I can't seem to recall right wing being "in vogue." It's been the reality at some point or another but it never really struck me as being as popular as left wing movements.
Obviously there were a few exceptions, like the 30's and 40's, but since then, can't really say it's ever really been "in vogue."
 
US forces seem to be active in the region and Chavez has responded

Chavez in $2bn Russian arms deal

Russia has agreed to lend Venezuela over $2bn (£1.2bn) to buy weapons, President Hugo Chavez has said.

The credit will be used to purchase nearly 100 tanks and a series of anti-aircraft rocket systems from Russia. In his weekly TV address, Mr Chavez said the weapons were intended to boost Venezuela's defensive capacity. The deal comes as tensions grow between Venezuela and Colombia over Bogota's plan to allow the US access to several military bases there.

Colombia says the US forces will help in the war against drugs and left-wing guerrillas, and will not destabilise the region.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8253822.stm

Hate to bust yer bubble but US Military Forces and Federal Law Enforcement have had access to Columbia for years. They have been providing assistance in advisory and tech skills for years. This isn't a revelation by any means. Hugo has been trying to cut a deal with Putin for at least a couple of years, before it was a in your face to Bush, now he can't back off his rhetoric.
 
Fascism like Green politics is really not classically left or right in my opinion. However, one could simplify political parties into two main groups. 1) the left Parties which provide genuine power to the masses via voting power and trade unionship and 2) the right, parties which restrict power to a few whether this be via a dictatorship by restricting voting power or cooperate power by making this theoretical voting power largely meaningless by supplying the central party with funding and marketing skills. The last technique has been so powerful (in making the public believe that socialism and particularly communism are a dirty traitorous words) no mainstream left wing party now exists in the UK or US.
"The Left provides genuine power to the masses via voting & Union membership" What detached from reality person wrote that drivel? You've got to be kidding! "The Masses" code words of Communist dictatorships everywhere. "No mainstream Left Party exists" What does the author think the Democrat Party is?????
 
"The Left provides genuine power to the masses via voting & Union membership" What detached from reality person wrote that drivel?

We have been over all that already George, it is a matter of definition. We are defining the left here as those who give GENUINE power to the people as was the intention in Chile, and the right as dictatorships either directly (the Politburo or Nazis) or ostensibly via media (eg the Murdoch empire) big Business interests (CEOs of Oil, automotive & defence industries closely tied in with Republican politicians).

"No mainstream Left Party exists" What does the author think the Democrat Party is?????

If you think the Democrats are 'left' in anything other than relative to the Republicans then you are trapped in a geographical and historical black hole.

Similar for the modern British Labour party. The latter sold their entire principles about 10 years ago under Blair when they renounced Clause 4. Could you imagine what would happen if Obama tried to implement this?
To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.

That is what left wing is. Not a petty attempt at a national health service and a slap on the legs for the bankers. Now don't do it again! If a Left wing goverment got in, the Dow would hit about 2000 overnight, and that's precisely why they won't. Too many people relying on the stock market for their pensions, it's all sewn up.
 
Last edited:
That is what left wing is. Not a petty attempt at a national health service and a slap on the legs for the bankers. Now don't do it again! If a Left wing goverment got in, the Dow would hit about 2000 overnight, and that's precisely why they won't. Too many people relying on the stock market for their pensions, it's all sewn up.


And the left wing are disastrous in power; authoritarian, totalitarian in practice.

And totalitarian regimes DO spring from socialist roots. The Soviet Socialist Republic, the National Socialists, and just about any totalitarian regime you can touch with a stick.

Socialism does not represent moderation, outside of rose-coloured specs.

Socialism, facism, forget it in practice, talk of big government and totalitarian regimes.

What is more - they don't work!

OK, it's Saturday night, I'm just off to a late-night hard rock gig - now THAT'S freedom!
 
Last edited:
Come on Del Boy we know you have really jetted off to the really big event here!

Juanes concert in Cuba readies for big crowd

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cubans were expected to fill Havana's massive Revolution Square on Sunday for a concert by Colombian singer Juanes and a lineup of top Spanish-language musicians who hope art can do what politics has not -- bring together Cubans here and in the United States.

The much-hyped event will be beamed live to an international television audience, including viewers in Miami, the heart of the Cuban exile community and center of opposition to Cuba's communist-led government.

Television viewers will see an expected half million people, who are being urged to wear white as a symbol of peace, listening to music in the square where the man Miami loves to hate, Fidel Castro, once spoke to huge rallies.

On Sunday morning, several hundred young people, organized by the Union of Young Communists, were at the site preparing to work security or staff food booths, undaunted by the prospect of a long day in the hot sun....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/20/AR2009092000765.html

Juanes was a member of heavy metal band Ekhymosis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanes
 
Last edited:
Genuine power to the people in Chile huh?

I'm beginning to think you have idea of how the cold war was and how communist/socialist movements work.

Power to the people and down with the capitalist pigs that are using the sweat of the worker is a common sentiment of "La Revolution". Castro used it.Che used it.Mao used it. Lenin used it. Chavez, Ortega, Morales and Correro are using it now.

Look at history it does'nt work.They promise the common man the moon and he ends up with nothing. Cuba is a case in point you have doctors driving cabs.

You have yet to recognize that Allende was backed.by the USSR'S proxy Castro with all that entails. It was the cold war it was about spheres of influence not the good of the people.
 
I think we need to chill out a bit, the Cuba thing was a joke. In fact the Bush regime supported Juanes who also believes Columbia is better off with their right wing regime.

It is certainly true that by following the the capitalist doctrine we have accumulated enormous material wealth. Assuming this object is more important than hapinness, freedom and democracy, that is within the workplace as well outside it, this has been very successful.

However, were I get annoyed is were people associate freedom, democracy WITH capitalism. It is no more a bedfellow than communism. Other factors dictate freedom (education, lack of corruption, laws protecting workers rights, maturity of the political system, freedom from outside influence).

The irony is that from the point of maintaining Western economic hegmony it may have been better (for the West) if true grass roots communism flourished in many countries. Take China for example, by adopting capitalism and running their version of it more efficiently than the West they are set to become the dominant economic power in the world. The top four banks in the world are now Chinese. Moreover, cultural and military dominance usually follows economic power.
 
Last edited:
There seems to be a mis-understanding in regards to the "Cold War", and here is my opinion. Whether it was cold, hot, lukewarm, or any other descriptive term, it was a war. Strip away all the pretty catch phrases and it is still the same thing. Both sides were trying to reach a pre-determined objective. when you are talking about two superpowers slugging it out, then you should realise that average joe is the one who will be taking the big hit. That is why they are called objectives, not "things that we would like to do for Mrs Smith.".
 
The cold war was basically a collection of little wars instead of one big one
Either way it was war
I did it between 80-99
 
JOHN PERKINS: Well, Amy, I think it’s fair to say that we economic hit men have managed to create the world’s first truly global empire. And it’s basically a secret empire.

We do it in many ways, but principally, we identify a country that has resources that corporations covet, like oil, arrange a huge loan to that country from the World Bank or one of its sisters. The money never actually goes to the country; it goes to our own corporations to build the infrastructure projects in that country that help a few very wealthy people, but don’t benefit the majority of the people, who are too poor to buy electricity or have cars to drive on the highways. And yet, they’re left holding a huge debt that they can’t repay.

So we go back at some point and say, “You know, you can’t pay your debts. Give us a pound of flesh. Sell your oil real cheap to our oil companies. Vote with us on the next critical UN vote. Allow us to build a military base in your backyard.” Something along these lines.

And when we fail—as I talk in my books, I failed with Jaime Roldos, president of Ecuador, Omar Torrijos of Panama—the Jackals go in and either overthrow or assassinate these leaders. And if the Jackals fail, as they did in Iraq, then we send in the military.

AMY GOODMAN: And what personal experience do you have to prove this?
JOHN PERKINS: Well, I was there. You know, I was with Jaime Roldos in Ecuador. I was the guy—one of the guys who was supposed to corrupt him, bring him around, and Omar Torrijos of Panama and many others. When I failed with those two gentlemen, the Jackals went in and assassinated both of them. And I was there; I was in those front lines."
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/11/10/hoodwinked_former_economic_hit_man_john
 
Back
Top