Remains of Polish soldiers/prisoners

Its not only the NAZI's and Japanese needed to be tried for war crimes, the Soviets should have been tried as well.

I often wish the western allies had a truce with Germany and Finland until they sorted out the soviets, there would have been far less problems around the world post WW2
 
Its not only the NAZI's and Japanese needed to be tried for war crimes, the Soviets should have been tried as well.

I often wish the western allies had a truce with Germany and Finland until they sorted out the soviets, there would have been far less problems around the world post WW2

I am not suggesting Stalin was any less dangerous than Hitler but I am not sure giving Germany another couple of years to get its act together and taking out the one country that stopped them would have been a good idea.

An intact Germany in 1943 without the losses from the Russian front facing off against a weakened Britain and France (assuming they could have defeated the Soviets) in the west would have been catastrophic I think.
 
I am not suggesting Stalin was any less dangerous than Hitler but I am not sure giving Germany another couple of years to get its act together and taking out the one country that stopped them would have been a good idea.

An intact Germany in 1943 without the losses from the Russian front facing off against a weakened Britain and France (assuming they could have defeated the Soviets) in the west would have been catastrophic I think.
Goes in the same category as "the Germans should have gone east with "The Bulge" forces", focuses on what would have been best for The West during the Cold War. Germany with its scientific achievements that just didn't have enough time to come together would have been bad given more time.
 
Goes in the same category as "the Germans should have gone east with "The Bulge" forces", focuses on what would have been best for The West during the Cold War. Germany with its scientific achievements that just didn't have enough time to come together would have been bad given more time.

I have often wondered how operation unthinkable would have turned out however this probably isn't the thread for it either.
It also intrigues me as to how Britain and France would have reacted had Russia invaded Poland before Germany.

In this case I am not sure people should be surprised about Russian actions given that we knew about the killing of Polish prisoners back as far as 1943 with the Katyn forest massacre.
 
I have often wondered how operation unthinkable would have turned out however this probably isn't the thread for it either.
It also intrigues me as to how Britain and France would have reacted had Russia invaded Poland before Germany.

In this case I am not sure people should be surprised about Russian actions given that we knew about the killing of Polish prisoners back as far as 1943 with the Katyn forest massacre.

We are usually not picky with staying on topic. I think if the operation unthinkable had been launched, the Western allies had suffered a defeat. The Russians had superiority in armor, infantry, artillery, and maybe in the mind as well. The West had a superiority in the air.

I don't think the English and the French had been able to do anything about it if the Russians attacked Poland before the Germans. The English would be in an ideological dilemma, I'm not sure if the French had been in the same ideological dilemma.
 
We are usually not picky with staying on topic. I think if the operation unthinkable had been launched, the Western allies had suffered a defeat. The Russians had superiority in armor, infantry, artillery, and maybe in the mind as well. The West had a superiority in the air.

I don't think the English and the French had been able to do anything about it if the Russians attacked Poland before the Germans. The English would be in an ideological dilemma, I'm not sure if the French had been in the same ideological dilemma.

Not sure I agree.
Yes the Russians had tank and artillery superiority but air superiority was always going to be in the west favour as was logistics and WW2 was a text book example of control the skies, control the battlefield.
Add to this the reformation of a German army and industry and I doubt the Russians really had much going for them, essentially I find myself in agreement with Patton.
 
Not sure I agree.
Yes the Russians had tank and artillery superiority but air superiority was always going to be in the west favour as was logistics and WW2 was a text book example of control the skies, control the battlefield.
Add to this the reformation of a German army and industry and I doubt the Russians really had much going for them, essentially I find myself in agreement with Patton.

Good point, I wasn't thinking about the Germans.
 
Good point, I wasn't thinking about the Germans.

Patton's primary argument seemed to be that Russian infantry and artillery were a match for the west but new western tanks such as the M26 Pershing were capable of going head to head with Russian heavies and western air power was dominant.

Logistically Russia had issues as they would be retreating over a devastated countryside and did not have a particularly sophisticated supply system as essentially they lived off the land.

Operation Unthinkable also factored in the Polish divisions, 10 reformed German divisions and Finnish forces.
One further addition to the allied arsenal was the development of atomic weaponry.
 
The British planned to start World War III by invading Russia with the German army
With the dust still settling after the end of World War II in Europe, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill set his sights on the next threat to Western Democracy: the Soviet Union.
Churchill was a dedicated anti-Communist. Even before the war’s end, the British PM expanded his anti-Communist rhetoric. He would later employ the same anti-Stalinist zeal in his public comments to people living inside the Iron Curtain (a term he coined in a 1946 speech).

The Prime Minister’s 1946 speech argued the Soviets were determined to expand their influence across Europe and into Asia – a conclusion U.S. President Harry S. Truman also held.

So it makes sense that Churchill would ask his War Cabinet to draw up a plan that would “impose upon Russia the will of the United States and the British Empire,” as Rakesh Krishnan Simha of Russia & India Report writes.

This essentially meant Churchill was ready to start World War III.

Dubbed “Unthinkable” by Britain’s General Staff, the plan called for American, British, and Polish troops — as well as soldiers from the newly-defeated Wehrmacht — to completely surprise the Soviets from the Baltic to the Mediterranean.

The differential in land forces between the West and the Soviet Union could not be offset by the air and naval superiority the Americans and British would have. The West just could not muster the manpower to match the Soviets. Churchill’s Defence Minister warned him that a quick victory would be “beyond our power” and that they should be prepared for “a long, protracted war against heavy odds.”

Manpower wasn’t the only issue. The Defence Minister’s plans relied on American allies — and the Pacific War was still in full swing. The United States was preparing for the invasion of mainland Japan. The rest of Europe was in tatters and could not assist the British in their efforts.

Then there was the question of how to defend the British Isles. The Russians could not mount the same submarine threat the Germans did during World War II. And the British Defence Ministry concluded the Russians certainly couldn’t launch an invasion from the sea.

But rocket attacks were a different challenge altogether. British planners were well aware of this threat and included it in the report to Churchill. Once the Russians began making these weapons en masse, the British expected a “far heavier scale of attack than the Germans were able to develop and no way of effectively reducing this.”

“You think destruction is your ally? You merely adopted destruction. Russians were born in it, molded by it.”

With Russian superiority in mainland Europe, the hypothetical rocket-based devastation of the British Isles in the scenario, and the insistence of President Truman that the United States would not participate, Churchill shelved the idea forever.
 
Patton's primary argument seemed to be that Russian infantry and artillery were a match for the west but new western tanks such as the M26 Pershing were capable of going head to head with Russian heavies and western air power was dominant.

Logistically Russia had issues as they would be retreating over a devastated countryside and did not have a particularly sophisticated supply system as essentially they lived off the land.

Operation Unthinkable also factored in the Polish divisions, 10 reformed German divisions and Finnish forces.
One further addition to the allied arsenal was the development of atomic weaponry.

But did the west allies have enough of M26 tanks in 1945? If I remember correctly, Patton wanted to attack pretty close to the German surrender when the West had sufficient amount of troops still in west Europe (Germany)

The air force could have trashed the Russian supply lines and major logistical hubs. But the Russians had been defensive and could probably have halted the Wests offensive. Furthermore, I think the Operation Unthinkable was a fantasy in Churchill's mind. The Americans would never support something like it when they were still fighting the Japs and began planning to transfer troops from Europe to the Pacific
 
But did the west allies have enough of M26 tanks in 1945? If I remember correctly, Patton wanted to attack pretty close to the German surrender when the West had sufficient amount of troops still in west Europe (Germany)


Probably not but both major western powers had heavy tanks in production or about to enter production, the British began production of the Centurian in January 1945 for example.


Taking into account allied air dominance I think it would have been very difficult for the Red Army to mount large scale build ups of men and material within within miles of the front to launch assaults or even coordinate a defense.



In terms of men and material the Russians certainly had the numbers except at sea.


The air force could have trashed the Russian supply lines and major logistical hubs. But the Russians had been defensive and could probably have halted the Wests offensive. Furthermore, I think the Operation Unthinkable was a fantasy in Churchill's mind. The Americans would never support something like it when they were still fighting the Japs and began planning to transfer troops from Europe to the Pacific


While I agree Operation Unthinkable was at best a long shot I do think it worth looking at the map of Europe on and around the 10th May 1945 as there were still German forces less than 100km from Krakow in Poland, close to 400,000 troops in Norway and the Kurland Pocket was still operating so had Patton and Churchill got an offensive going directly after the German surrender the Russians would have had a lot of difficulty in putting a cohesive front line together.


That being said logistically the Allies would have had exactly the same problems the Germans had which makes it a very unlikely scenario although an East/West fight would allow an assault on Russian oil through Iran.


As for Japan, comparitively few troops went from Europe to the Pacific Theatre as the war with Japan was basically over by the time they could have got there due to a shortage of transport most stayed in Europe for months until they could get a ship home.
 
Last edited:
.As for Japan, comparitively few troops went from Europe to the Pacific Theatre as the war with Japan was basically over by the time they could have got there due to a shortage of transport most stayed in Europe for months until they could get a ship home.
That's because of the convienient deployment of the A Bomb, and Russia joining the Pacific War. Without that there would have been a need for a massive movement of troops to the Pacific. Have read somewhere that the US considered itself fairly extended in manpower (and possibly financially) by mid '45 as it was, w/o a war on Russia.
 
That's because of the convienient deployment of the A Bomb, and Russia joining the Pacific War. Without that there would have been a need for a massive movement of troops to the Pacific. Have read somewhere that the US considered itself fairly extended in manpower (and possibly financially) by mid '45 as it was, w/o a war on Russia.


But would they have bothered using the A-Bomb on Japan had the been in conflict with Russia after all the distance from Berlin to Moscow is far shorter than the distance from Tinnian to Hiroshima.
 
If the West was at War with Russia, then Japan would probably left isolated, cut off from oil supplies. Invasion of Japan was going to take well over a million troops.
 
If the West was at War with Russia, then Japan would probably left isolated, cut off from oil supplies. Invasion of Japan was going to take well over a million troops.

Indeed.
I suspect even without bombing or invading Japan would have surrendered within 6 months due to lack of food and materials.
Meanwhile the troops in the Pacific would have looked at holding down significant Russian assets by creating fronts in China, India and Iran.

I personally think that the only question to ask is whether western air power would have gained dominance over the Red air force if yes then really it would have been a war Russia couldn't win.
 
I personally think that the only question to ask is whether western air power would have gained dominance over the Red air force if yes then really it would have been a war Russia couldn't win.
The Soviets had to face only a very good tactical air force in the Luftwaffe, The US had a large capable strategic air force that the Soviets hadn't had to contend with before. Probably not much defenses in the rear areas. Open to missions from Iran.
 
The reason I raise the air force question is that in terms of numbers they were fairly evenly matched in everything excluding bombers and the Soviets had proven very resilient in recovering from the losses of 1941.
 
Back
Top