Remains of Polish soldiers/prisoners - Page 2




 
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October 10th, 2020  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Patton's primary argument seemed to be that Russian infantry and artillery were a match for the west but new western tanks such as the M26 Pershing were capable of going head to head with Russian heavies and western air power was dominant.

Logistically Russia had issues as they would be retreating over a devastated countryside and did not have a particularly sophisticated supply system as essentially they lived off the land.

Operation Unthinkable also factored in the Polish divisions, 10 reformed German divisions and Finnish forces.
One further addition to the allied arsenal was the development of atomic weaponry.
But did the west allies have enough of M26 tanks in 1945? If I remember correctly, Patton wanted to attack pretty close to the German surrender when the West had sufficient amount of troops still in west Europe (Germany)

The air force could have trashed the Russian supply lines and major logistical hubs. But the Russians had been defensive and could probably have halted the Wests offensive. Furthermore, I think the Operation Unthinkable was a fantasy in Churchill's mind. The Americans would never support something like it when they were still fighting the Japs and began planning to transfer troops from Europe to the Pacific
October 10th, 2020  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
But did the west allies have enough of M26 tanks in 1945? If I remember correctly, Patton wanted to attack pretty close to the German surrender when the West had sufficient amount of troops still in west Europe (Germany)

Probably not but both major western powers had heavy tanks in production or about to enter production, the British began production of the Centurian in January 1945 for example.


Taking into account allied air dominance I think it would have been very difficult for the Red Army to mount large scale build ups of men and material within within miles of the front to launch assaults or even coordinate a defense.



In terms of men and material the Russians certainly had the numbers except at sea.


Quote:
The air force could have trashed the Russian supply lines and major logistical hubs. But the Russians had been defensive and could probably have halted the Wests offensive. Furthermore, I think the Operation Unthinkable was a fantasy in Churchill's mind. The Americans would never support something like it when they were still fighting the Japs and began planning to transfer troops from Europe to the Pacific

While I agree Operation Unthinkable was at best a long shot I do think it worth looking at the map of Europe on and around the 10th May 1945 as there were still German forces less than 100km from Krakow in Poland, close to 400,000 troops in Norway and the Kurland Pocket was still operating so had Patton and Churchill got an offensive going directly after the German surrender the Russians would have had a lot of difficulty in putting a cohesive front line together.


That being said logistically the Allies would have had exactly the same problems the Germans had which makes it a very unlikely scenario although an East/West fight would allow an assault on Russian oil through Iran.


As for Japan, comparitively few troops went from Europe to the Pacific Theatre as the war with Japan was basically over by the time they could have got there due to a shortage of transport most stayed in Europe for months until they could get a ship home.
October 12th, 2020  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
.As for Japan, comparitively few troops went from Europe to the Pacific Theatre as the war with Japan was basically over by the time they could have got there due to a shortage of transport most stayed in Europe for months until they could get a ship home.
That's because of the convienient deployment of the A Bomb, and Russia joining the Pacific War. Without that there would have been a need for a massive movement of troops to the Pacific. Have read somewhere that the US considered itself fairly extended in manpower (and possibly financially) by mid '45 as it was, w/o a war on Russia.
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October 12th, 2020  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
That's because of the convienient deployment of the A Bomb, and Russia joining the Pacific War. Without that there would have been a need for a massive movement of troops to the Pacific. Have read somewhere that the US considered itself fairly extended in manpower (and possibly financially) by mid '45 as it was, w/o a war on Russia.

But would they have bothered using the A-Bomb on Japan had the been in conflict with Russia after all the distance from Berlin to Moscow is far shorter than the distance from Tinnian to Hiroshima.
October 13th, 2020  
George
 
If the West was at War with Russia, then Japan would probably left isolated, cut off from oil supplies. Invasion of Japan was going to take well over a million troops.
October 14th, 2020  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
If the West was at War with Russia, then Japan would probably left isolated, cut off from oil supplies. Invasion of Japan was going to take well over a million troops.
Indeed.
I suspect even without bombing or invading Japan would have surrendered within 6 months due to lack of food and materials.
Meanwhile the troops in the Pacific would have looked at holding down significant Russian assets by creating fronts in China, India and Iran.

I personally think that the only question to ask is whether western air power would have gained dominance over the Red air force if yes then really it would have been a war Russia couldn't win.
October 14th, 2020  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB

I personally think that the only question to ask is whether western air power would have gained dominance over the Red air force if yes then really it would have been a war Russia couldn't win.
The Soviets had to face only a very good tactical air force in the Luftwaffe, The US had a large capable strategic air force that the Soviets hadn't had to contend with before. Probably not much defenses in the rear areas. Open to missions from Iran.
October 17th, 2020  
MontyB
 
 
The reason I raise the air force question is that in terms of numbers they were fairly evenly matched in everything excluding bombers and the Soviets had proven very resilient in recovering from the losses of 1941.
 


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