Religion and war

[MontyB]

The documentary has a point but the majority of Muslims I've known don't really care about the calls to violence like that. They just want to get to work, earn some money, send their kids to school etc.

This is precisely it, how you react to both the Bible and the Koran comes down to how you interpret it and in both cases you have extremists who interpret it to mean "impose your views through violence" however the vast majority of both religions prefer to live their lives solving the immediate problems of life ie where the next meal is coming from, going to work, mowing the lawn and downloading internet porn.

 

[ObjSRgtLw]

Many things come into consideration: violence, revenge, conditions after years in refugee camps... but i can't reject the fact that the islamic texts are full of ordered aggression and acts of violence against oposing forces, states, religions and races... that's what is underlined in the documentary as well

What i heard a muslim friend of mine once say is that the texts are all very old, though there is lot of good stuff in it (which maybe was an improvement back then = less cruel for example, nowadays just makes it worse) there would be a great need of transfer to modern standart. The Problem with the islam is that they bear the strict order that the texts can't be changed or re-interpreted in any way- that's a big manco of the Islam and a great problem too in my eyes. I think my friend made a good point there...

 

[A Can of Man]

Well if it's written there like that I guess you can't deny it.
The good news is, as said before, the vast majority of Muslims don't care about strapping themselves to bombs because some guy told him to. They're interested in what most people are interested in. Getting food on the table at home, sending kids to school, does my toilet flush, is the water running etc.
I'm fine with that alone. As for the re-interpretation etc., that's something Muslims themselves will have to deal with.

 

[major liability]

If it weren't for religion, they'd surely find some other excuse to send you to war. Religion is just a particularly convenient means of control, as it's been around for millennia and the parents indoctrinate the people for you automatically!

 

[Del Boy]

It's hard to argue if it's written like that.
At least Jesus never killed anyone.

The Passion of St. Matthew has probably killed more than most though, over almost 2000 years, and still stands today, responsible for an awful indictment of man's inhumanity to man.


"Many and sharp the num'rous ills

Inwoven with our frame!

More pointed still we make ourselves

Regret, remorse and shame!

And man, whose heav'n erected face

The smiles of love adorn,

Man's inhumanity to man

Makes countless thousands mourn!"

(Rabbie Burns)


Countless millions I would say, but Burns spoke in 1784.
Nevertheless, the nature of man is the true culprit.

 

[senojekips]

I never cease to be amazed a how when something marvellous happens it is the work of God, yet when something disgusting happens, it is the work of man.

How very convenient.

 

[LeMask]

I never cease to be amazed a how when something marvellous happens it is the work of God, yet when something disgusting happens, it is the work of man.

I dont see the problem. Honestly you should try a different perspective on this particular subject.

let me give you an exemple:
You see a man helping poor people to feed themselves. You say that god is generous...
you see a man murdering another man. You say that men can do horrible things.

is it really unfair? it's actually not. because god ordered men to help the poor. while he also ordered to not murder. it's pretty simple.

god is a "good" entity... so everything "good" is his "work".

And I personnaly love religions. I mean Abrahmic religions (Judaism, Christianism and Islam).

God doesnt love us because of the language we speak, our nationality, the color of our skin... he doesnt care about these things.
Religion can be used to boost the morale of the troops.
It's easier to be brave when you know that you are doing it for the good cause. the cause of god. when you fight corruption and injustice.

I take Islam as an exemple here:
In Islam, there is no holy war... all this Jihad as holy war is a big joke. of course, some Muslims fell into this joke... and a large part of the Occidental world also believe in it.

in Islam offensive war is even forbidden. you wont see a Muslim starting a preventive war...
and about Jihad, there is the little jihad and great Jihad.
Jihad means struggle. the great jihad is everyday's struggle to be a good person. and the little jihad is the auto-defence duty on every able male.
fighting back a thief is a jihad... and going to war is a jihad the same way...

so I kind of laugh when I hear people talking about "jihad" like if it was a war against them just for being different.

and I see the media speak about it the same way... for me, it's a big joke.

we (men) do war for money, fame, power, women, oil, lands, prestige, honor...
god have nothing to do with all of this... when you are religious, all you care about is being a nice strong person... that's it.

 

[UnitedSomalia]

Religion, resources, strategic locations, political influence, race, culture. Have all been reasons wars broke out in no particular order.

 

[A Can of Man]

Actually resources are the biggest reason anyone's ever gone to war. They've often used religion as an excuse to recruit people to their cause. Usually, "there's a pot of coal over there and I want to get it!" is usually a bad recruiting strategy. So they find a link with divinity and fire away.
Religion takes the fall for someone else's greed.

 

[senojekips]

I dont see the problem. Honestly you should try a different perspective on this particular subject.

Why,.... so it suits the teachings of a book written by men about a "God" that lives purely in their imagination?

let me give you an exemple:
You see a man helping poor people to feed themselves. You say that god is generous...

No,I would say a man is being generous, I've never seen God do anything.

you see a man murdering another man. You say that men can do horrible things.

No, I see an "omnipotent God" playing stupid mind games games with people who should have the sense to know better.

is it really unfair? it's actually not. because god ordered men to help the poor. while he also ordered to not murder. it's pretty simple.

Unfair,... Fair,... where does it say that life is meant to be fair?

god is a "good" entity... so everything "good" is his "work".

God is a man made entity, to explain away the unexplainable. Nothing more nothing less. If he is real why does he kill small children in ways that no man would dare? Don't forget this is supposed to be an omnipotent God therefore in control of all things.

god have nothing to do with all of this... when you are religious, all you care about is being a nice strong person... that's it.

By this statement are you saying that non believers are not, or cannot be nice people?

Now, this debate has been had on this forum before, so before it leads to the thread being locked it may be better to stick to "religion" which has absolutely nothing to do with God.

 

[A Can of Man]

I've had issues with people being able to explain something as complicated as God in too great of a detail.

 

[Del Boy]

"So simple any child can understand, so complex no atheist can solve."

 

[major liability]

Trying to explain faith to an atheist is like trying to explain psychedelic drugs to someone who's never tried them, and vice versa. You can argue on and on, but in the end there's simply no common ground to be had.

Personally I think religion can be a source of great courage and goodness in the world, or it can be a means of spreading hatred and prejudice. It's like a firearm; it all depends on who's using it.

 

[LeMask]

Unfair,... Fair,... where does it say that life is meant to be fair?

Life isnt fair. but we must try our hardest to change that. you dont want to live in an unfair world. we have a natural ability to spot good and evil. we are not animals.

if you dont believe in god, it's your right. I wont even discuss that. it's just that you have to understand that there is people who believe in god. and they arent stupid. it's a choice they made.
now, you must be aware that they see life in a different light. and very different than yours. tolerance is the key.

you shouldnt hate religion and blame all the earths problems on it...
and in the other side of the coin, there is religious people who blame all earth's problem on a lack of religion.

these extremists are a source of violence and conflict too...

tolerance is the key...

but my opinion is that religion is a scapegoat. nationalism killed much more people than religion.

just think about all the soldiers massed on barriers anf frontiers just because some man drew some lines on a map and named them countries...

did I say that I was an anti-nationalist?

 

[Del Boy]

Trying to explain faith to an atheist is like trying to explain psychedelic drugs to someone who's never tried them, and vice versa. You can argue on and on, but in the end there's simply no common ground to be had.

Personally I think religion can be a source of great courage and goodness in the world, or it can be a means of spreading hatred and prejudice. It's like a firearm; it all depends on who's using it.

Absolutely Major. Nice one.:bravo:

 

[perseus]

If it weren't for religion, they'd surely find some other excuse to send you to war. Religion is just a particularly convenient means of control, as it's been around for millennia and the parents indoctrinate the people for you automatically!

Indeed. If someone wishes to be deluded and it makes them happier without making other people unhappy in the long run I don't see the problem. I cannot bring myself to say to a religious family, this person is really going to be no more, it seems as if it does more harm than good.

Then again I believe religion should only be taught as part of general Philosophy so children can make up their own minds. Adults and schools have no right to indoctrinate them with any one belief.

 

[Del Boy]

But if the human state is left without spiritual guidance , then it has only Darwinism, nature red in tooth and claw,the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest only. For humans, very, very ugly indeed.

 

[perseus]

Philosophy is quite a wide discipline and includes ethical values and how to evaluate them, do we have to have the fear of retribution to make us behave. Does the threat of retribution make us behave?

 

[major liability]

The only rule that really needs to be instilled at a young age is the Golden Rule. The rest should be left to the individual. True faith is discovered, not taught.

 

[senojekips]

"So simple any child can understand, so complex no atheist can solve."

Perhaps for once Del Boy I must agree with you most whole heartedly. Children being children, will believe most things until they get to five, six or seven years of age when they start to develop an enquiring mind and learn the truth. Similarly it would also be childish to even think that anyone can "solve" that which is not there in the first place.

A very good analogy.