Religion of Peace

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Redneck, I respectfully suggest that these values existed long before they were adopted by the religions of the world. One must not confuse human values with religious values. These values have merely been adopted by some religions not invented by them.

I fully agree with your examples of failures in the system, but in most cases this is more a failure of man and really has little to do with religion other than to demonstrate that religion does not necessarily make one a moral person. We all have our failings and nothing will ever stop that.

As for arguing about religion, as you say it is futile, as it is a personal choice, like following a football team. Hatred should never come into it, I don't "hate" a man who follows another football team. I also agree with your thoughts on the christian religion's preoccupation with gathering adherents, as it is merely to satisfy some church hierarchy that they have done God's will and hopefully it will earn them points on that great heavenly scoreboard. It all comes back to fear which in most cases has been instilled in these persons by their religion from childhood. Then of course there are the economic benefits, have you ever noticed that most religious bodies are wealthy, some of them obscenely so, with such things as air conditioned dog houses for the pets of the leaders, gold embroidered vestments and on and on. Yes, they also do a lot of charity work but you might forgive me if I were to suggest that perhaps this is done as an "investment" in the future.

If one feels that religion makes him a better person, that is great, but I like to think that I need no crutch to get me through my life and that I can "work it out for myself". After all, leading a morally responsible life is not rocket science.
 
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Senojekips, you have a good point but most of these ethics you speak of actually originate from religion. These days they often pull God away from these messages that were brought to the world through religion.

This is true but they do not necessarily originate from the Christian religion in fact I think that if you were to take an in depth look you would find that the basic principals that make up our laws and ethics today actually pre-date Christianity by a long way.

Many of the basic rules we live by today can be found in cultures dating back to periods well before the thought of a single god was ever considered therefore I would be inclined to say that they came about as a consequence of mans move away from the nomadic lifestyle, basically as soon as humans started living closer to each other they decided on a set of common sense rules.
 
I don't think we should confuse belief and faith with organizations.
I for one, though I do believe in the Christian faith, I do not trust church organizations and I feel it can be dangerous to be mixed in with the wrong kind of Christian groups. Not that they turn violent, but you can get into a dangerous mode of groupthink.
I think the most important thing about religions is their CORE beliefs and in terms of core beliefs, most religions of the world have a lot more in common than their religion leaders like to admit.
Of course, one religion is not the only way to find yourself the right kind of moral compass, but the origin of "human values" and "religious values" is so heavily entwined that you cannot really tell which is which. Religion has been around as long as human reason. This is the reason why the VAST majority of human expression of values or even historical events were in fact at first religious. Cave paintings etc. are also highly idealistic reminiscent of a religion rather than thought.
The reason I believe God is one is because I feel any force that powerful does not truly require some kind of teamwork. I personally believe that polytheistic religions may be seeing the multifacets of one God and interpret it as many.
That's just my view anyway.
 
what came first?

chicken?

or egg?

I'ts pretty obvious isn't it? A rooster chicken by immaculate conception. From his breastbone (chickens don't have ribs) a wizard made a hen, to henpeck him for the rest of his days.

Don't crap there, I've just cleaned that dirt!

Tidy up those scratchings!

You never take me anywhere!
 
Inferno, IF you want to discuss the issue we can discuss it. I respectfully ask you quit jumping the ****ing gun and putting words into my mouth because you THINK you know where I am going with something. You don't, you're very off the mark, again. Now, one last time, do you wish to engage in an adult conversation or shall we stick to glib remarks and assumption?

Senojekips, thanks for your response. I do not wish to argue religion with you. I find it is one of the things which defies logic by the very definitions of logic and of religion. However, I would argue that for the masses of humanity on this planet, religion does more harm than good.

I also would argue that the origins of values is not as important as the existance and implementation of them. And that in order to gain acceptance and to foment people adhering to values and not resorting to purely selfish behaviour there must be a system which applies to people who are limited in intellect, for whatever reason, as they need a framework and that religion in its myriad of forms provides this. When dealing with the average hooplehead and attempting to explain to them why one should not kill I would argue that for most the idea of going to hell is a far better motivator than "because". And that laws miss the mark when attempting to guide human behaviour. My country is enamoured with the concept of legislating morality and I would argue is horribly inept at it. It is better for someone to follow a system of virtue ethics and do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing than to be mindlessly following a set of rules or laws that prohibit the behaviour because in the latter situation if the person deduces there is a high likelyhood of NOT getting caught they will not follow the rule/law.

No system is without flaw but the lack of any system for implementing widespread acceptance and adherence to values of right and wrong behaviour is worse than any religious faux pas one might care to point out.

Which brings me to my problem with Islam. Their system of right and wrong explicitly calls for murder, condones rape and is operating at a level of pre-medival consciousness.
 
Which brings me to my problem with Islam. Their system of right and wrong explicitly calls for murder, condones rape and is operating at a level of pre-medival consciousness.

Now that I agree with, whole heartedly. The Muslim fundamentalists are not going to let it move forward either.
 
I don't think there's too much to debate on that one.

As for the origin of these ideals we hold to be valuable... I feel the origin is important in that if we completely disassociate ourselves with it, the values may last a generation but the distance will get further and further very quickly.
It would be like an original piece to which all variations can compare themselves with. I guess that's an easy way to put it.
 
Now that I agree with, whole heartedly. The Muslim fundamentalists are not going to let it move forward either.

And, reading the Old Testament one can find a whole bunch of things which called for the Perpetrator(s) to be put to death.
 
But we've moved on since.

Well, near as I can tell the Jews haven't.... as those of Jewish faith are still working off of the old playbook in regard to the Christian religion, even though the old laws and punishments for such infractions are no longer used, but, regardless, it is still commanded that the Jews follow them, and enforce infractions as laid down in law with corresponding punishments for such, as there has been no official change from on high that I know of, but I'm not Jewish so I may have not gotten the memo.
So, in the end the Jews just choose on their own to be disobedient.

Who knows, perhaps in a few hundred years the Muslims will do the same.... they are after all the fairly new kids on the block as far as major Religions of the World go, so, maybe they just need to learn how to pick and choose which commands to follow, and, which ones not to follow, thus becoming more like everyone else.
 
Yes and I'm sure a little ass woopin' will be the surefire thing to educate them about what isn't appropriate.

Well, never let it be said that I'm not for a Religious War, if need be..... I'm Catholic, one Billion plus adherents, and, I'm thinking I like our odds..... but, Holy Church has been known to go after and cause harm to all sorts of non-Catholics, the Jews and Prots come to mind, so, it maybe hard to turn the switch off once the Holy Roman instrument of Gods Wrath on this Earth gets going (again).
 
So, in the end the Jews just choose on their own to be disobedient.

Let's not confuse the Jews, and the Zionists here. Even in Israel, it appears that the divide between these two groups is widening. Many Jews are seeing the similarities between the way the Jews were treated by the NAZIs in the early 1930s and the way they are treating the Palestinians (and Arabs generally).
 
But we've moved on since.

Are you sure you have all moved on though?

godhates.jpg


Seems to me this bunch of nutjobs have a completely different interpretation of things.
 
Inferno, IF you want to discuss the issue we can discuss it. I respectfully ask you quit jumping the ****ing gun and putting words into my mouth because you THINK you know where I am going with something. You don't, you're very off the mark, again. Now, one last time, do you wish to engage in an adult conversation or shall we stick to glib remarks and assumption?


first of all it was not my intention to put words in your mouth, and i guess what may have set me off it the line you seemed to be pursuing is one that a lot of racist groups in australasia are quite keen on trotting out to back up their views. (not that i am trying to suggest that you are one of them)

secondly, i completely understand being in the position where people make assumptions about your position...it's something that i have become used to at the forum.

Senojekips, thanks for your response. I do not wish to argue religion with you. I find it is one of the things which defies logic by the very definitions of logic and of religion. However, I would argue that for the masses of humanity on this planet, religion does more harm than good.

I also would argue that the origins of values is not as important as the existance and implementation of them. And that in order to gain acceptance and to foment people adhering to values and not resorting to purely selfish behaviour there must be a system which applies to people who are limited in intellect, for whatever reason, as they need a framework and that religion in its myriad of forms provides this. When dealing with the average hooplehead and attempting to explain to them why one should not kill I would argue that for most the idea of going to hell is a far better motivator than "because". And that laws miss the mark when attempting to guide human behaviour. My country is enamoured with the concept of legislating morality and I would argue is horribly inept at it. It is better for someone to follow a system of virtue ethics and do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing than to be mindlessly following a set of rules or laws that prohibit the behaviour because in the latter situation if the person deduces there is a high likelyhood of NOT getting caught they will not follow the rule/law.

No system is without flaw but the lack of any system for implementing widespread acceptance and adherence to values of right and wrong behaviour is worse than any religious faux pas one might care to point out.

Which brings me to my problem with Islam. Their system of right and wrong explicitly calls for murder, condones rape and is operating at a level of pre-medival consciousness.

thirdly, i actually cant fault you for what you have said above.


Are you sure you have all moved on though?

godhates.jpg


Seems to me this bunch of nutjobs have a completely different interpretation of things.



uck, westboro baptists im guessing? probably the most vile group of utter retards i could ever imagine
 
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uck, westboro baptists im guessing? probably the most vile group of utter retards i could ever imagine



Exactly but the question is how is this considered:
terrorist1.jpg


Terrorism and brainwashing and indicative of a religion of war.

yet this:
godhates.jpg


Is just a bunch of warped individuals and not indicative of a peaceful religion as a whole?
 
I'm staying out of this one, simply because i have too much to say. I will make this point regarding Bull Dog's original post. When you are finished with this argument, consider this. The ideology in question is already on your case, and coming for you. You will fight as free men or become slaves. It is here, at your door. Now is the time, don't argue too long, as we in England are doing. Our country is slipping from us, through our weak underbelly government.

Like you guys, I love peace and freedom - it is worth fighting for. Finished on this, folks.


Command the future, conquer the past.
 
Ask yourself:

Are those nutjob-christians holding up those banner willing to kill us and murder the rest if we dont convert to their version of christianity?
 
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