Rob Henderson
Banned
Im just going to jump into this and question your first response...Does that make it any better?!?!? Just because people didn't die in there doesn't mean it's right. If anything, people might have wished that they were dying.
Real photos of Cuba
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
So people didn't die but were beaten. And that makes it okay. Sure, whatever.
1. I don't go around like many of your leftist protestors and set items on fire and destory public and private property like you guys did during the FTAA.
2. I don't go to funerals and belittle the heroic actions of those that died in combat.
3. I don't tell people that if I had power I would take away their property, rights, and religious beliefs like you and your leftist cromrades have done.
4. I don't support communist, socialist, fascist, totalitarian dictatorships, and any other government, group of belief that abuses people in anyway.
And lastly, if you love the United States of America. Shut up or put up. Go to Cuba or North Korea and live there for six months. That's all, nothing more. Lets see how much you like it.
Dark_Mark said:
1. I don't go around like many of your leftist protestors and set items on fire and destory public and private property like you guys did during the FTAA.
2. I don't go to funerals and belittle the heroic actions of those that died in combat.
3. I don't tell people that if I had power I would take away their property, rights, and religious beliefs like you and your leftist cromrades have done.
4. I don't support communist, socialist, fascist, totalitarian dictatorships, and any other government, group of belief that abuses people in anyway.
And lastly, if you love the United States of America. Shut up or put up. Go to Cuba or North Korea and live there for six months. That's all, nothing more. Lets see how much you like it.
boris116
Active member
gladius said:
Of course, not!
I just tried(unsuccesfully, I think) to convey that you, guys, have a little simplistic notion of what's going on in the totalitarian countries.
gladius said:
I was born 1.5 years after the Stalin's death, so neither I nor Putin(who is approximately of the same age) can be responsible for all atrocities commited by the commies. We just got all the consequences - we didn't get a choice where to be born and who our parents should be...
The same is with all countless people in N. Korea, China, Russia and other countries.
People out there are not building "a worker's paradize", they are just trying to live their lives and making the most of it...
My lives over there and over here are very different in some ways. And very similar in others.gladius said:
If I tell you that my life in the USSR was a life of horrors and no joy - I will be lying. And if I tell you that my life in the USA is a 100% bliss - you wouldn't believe me either...
It's a complicated thing. Please, read again what loki has written.
gladius said:
No, I was in a business trip, so I wouldn't be home anyway. Just in addition to my luggage, I had 2 big boxes to carry
You almost sound as if you like the Stasi. They seem no big deal to you. How come they were so hated by the people living under them.loki said:
Since having a secret police is okay to you don't complain next time any Western country such as the US ends crossing the line and beat up suppected terrorist which is only a triffle to what the GDR did. Since you so okay with Stasi beatings.
Those people hardly had steaks, you make it seems like they live the life of the average Western family, hardly.
But I will agree that you can be happy in most situations even with a totalitarian state.
And they didn't need prozac over there, they had vodka or the equivalent.
But I don't think its a question of why
But the fact is they try to improve their lives whether they live in the US or go back to Mexico. So improvement of the quality of life does matter regardless of what you say. You are saying quality of life is the same, its not.
I agree with you communism is appealing to certain people. This is true. But how many people had to go through hell to get there.
The only reason the GDR was able to exist was because of Soviet Russia under Stalin and how many did he have to mass murder to get to the status quo. All you are concered with is the status quo. But how many people had to suffer through hell for this to be.
The mass murders may not have happened in GDR, but it did happen. The price paid to the GDR to have their "worker paradise" and have a nation live under the watchful eye of the secret police was the deaths of 20 to 40 million under Stalin. Not to mention to oppresion of the human spirit of hundreds of millions of others.
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Great post! :thumb: And thanks for the support.boris116 said:
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You others, especially gladius: Could you please stop posting such nonsense and actually read (thoroughly) what I write?! I never said with a word that its ok to torture people in any way. Why do you think I post details on how people where humiliated in Stasi prisons? To glorify communism? As I said my family fled from the GDR and lost most of their property that way. I hardly have much sympathy for their regime. I just meant to correct some remarks about the GDR because they were wrong.
Life is no Jean-Claude van Damme movie with the US an island of happyness and the rest a picture of misery and opression. Its not that simple. Its true western liberalism has proven to be the better system for providing overall wealth. Yet that doesn't mean one could not possibly live a comfortable life under communism. The real reason to chose the first is the ideals behind it, the freedoms it guarantees, equality, justice, rule of law. I think these are much better reasons than how much you earn or what car you get to drive either way.
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Edit: Oh and gladius just so you learn something: Yes they did have steaks in the GDR. Does that mean communism is great, I am a pinko and we should all burn the american flag? No it just means they had steaks.They had no tomatoes though hence they couldn't make any real burgers or steak-sandwiches and they had not bananas as I mentioned and their chocolate tasted like crap, even worse than american chocolate if you can imagine that.
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Dark_Mark
Active member
5.56X45mm said:
1. I have never taken party in any such protest, and I find your generalizations offensive.
2. I abhor those protests, most of which are actually made by radical members of the religious right that think homosexuals cause casualties in Iraq.
3. Sorry if I feel the means of production should be used for the common good of the workers rather than personal financial gain. But I endorse all civil liberties, including freedom of religion. I challenge you to find a single document written by Marx or Lenin that endorses illegalizing religion, or better yet depriving people of their rights.
4. Sorry if I feel Castro has done more good than harm. And about demcracy in Cuba: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/4/17/211054.shtml
Whether you like it or not, there are elections every 2 and one-half years in Cuba, and there are many divisions in the Cuban Communist Party, perhaps more than between the Democrats and the Republicans.
If you choose to claim this system is undemocratic, that is your choice, but I do not.
And lastly, I have never, nor will I ever, defend North Korea. However, I would love to go to Cuba, and take a real, self-guided bicycle tour so that I could see the real Cuba (sort of like this one: http://www.bicyclingcuba.com/bikecuba/index.html). Such a tour would be illegal for me unless I had connections with some university or the government. I will probably go sometime in the next few years after I have saved up enough money (it is sort of expensive to take an illegal trip to Cuba). I love this country too much to leave it for more than a few weeks, thank you very much.
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boris116
Active member
loki said:
I have another comment to this post.
Could you imagine a Kuwaiti or Saudi girl who DOESN'T dream of going out in T-shirt and mini-skirt?
A girl, who DOESN'T feel opressed due to impossibility of doing that?
She just DOESN'T know that going out in burka is bad. For her it's normal.
She DOESN'T know any other way of life.
We are trying to judge other people based on very little and biased information. Then we wonder, why our government and intelligence have made so many mistakes. I am referring here to the fall of Bagdad and the looting and everything that has happened and is happening still...
I would imagine, the analysts at the CIA have been thinking all along the same lines like some people here
)In the same time, people on "the other side" have the same, if not worst misconceptions about the West.
Our advantage, I believe, is in our ability to keep our eyes and minds open.
Let's use it!!!:salute:
Rob Henderson
Banned
Once again, not fighting anything else, but seriously, the way you wrote, it sounded like you speak of the Stasi beatings like they weren't that bad. Not like you supported them, but you weren't completely appalled by them. That's the way you (as a human being, not a political party) should feel.loki said:
Life is no Jean-Claude van Damme movie with the US an island of happyness and the rest a picture of misery and opression. Its not that simple. Its true western liberalism has proven to be the better system for providing overall wealth. Yet that doesn't mean one could not possibly live a comfortable life under communism. The real reason to chose the first is the ideals behind it, the freedoms it guarantees, equality, justice, rule of law. I think these are much better reasons than how much you earn or what car you get to drive either way.
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loki said:
Well "appalled" is a strong word. I was appalled when I first read about the holocaust. But its a bad thing to treat people like they did in the GDR, yes.C/1Lt Henderson said:
Anyway as I see it the reason for those misunderstandings here is that you guys take everything here as "propaganda". But if someone mentions a rather "positive" (I know its not positive that they "only" beat people) aspect of something doesn't mean he supports the whole thing. I just mentioned those things on the GDR because some seem to have a bit distorted views, like every communist country was hell on earth with death camps, secret police everywhere, senselessly abducting people, everybody starving and no steaks except for the politbureau. That is just not true I know people in the GDR had enough to eat (fact) and theres still enough i dislike about that regime (opinion). You see thats two different things, facts and opinion, you build your opinion on the facts you have but if your facts are incorrect your opinion is worthless.
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Rob Henderson
Banned
The basic point we are trying to illustrate is that communism tends to be worse off for its people. You dont see communist countries making extraordinary advances in the various fields do you? Where you do see those sorts of things in America and other non-communist countries. Sure, they may have had steaks, but were they abundant among the common folk? Or did few common folk have them and MOSTLY the politbureau?
boris116
Active member
Dark_Mark said:
What?! Are you kidding?
Look here:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/may/13.htm
Marxism is materialism. As such, it is as relentlessly hostile to religion as was the materialism of the eighteenth-century Encyclopaedists or the materialism of Feuerbach. This is beyond doubt. But the dialectical materialism of Marx and Engels goes further than the Encyclopaedists and Feuerbach, for it applies the materialist philosophy to the domain of history, to the domain of the social sciences. We must combat religion—that is the ABC of all materialism, and consequently of Marxism. But Marxism is not a materialism which has stopped at the ABC. Marxism goes further. It says: We must know how to combat religion, and in order to do so we must explain the source of faith and religion among the masses in a materialist way. The combating of religion cannot be confined to abstract ideological preaching, and it must not be reduced to such preaching. It must be linked up with the concrete practice of the class movement, which aims at eliminating the social roots of religion.
Can you read Russian? I can provide you with plenty of orders signed by Lenin as a Head of the Government.
Orders to kill - monks, priests, civilians...
How can you be so ignorant?!
C/1Lt Henderson said:
Nobody here, even Dark_Mark the Commie
has been trying to prove the opposite!
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Rob Henderson
Banned
Even though he said that he felt Castro has done more good than harm? Sounds to me like he is saying that communism is good for people...Call me crazy though.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Dark Mark, communism is the negation of democracy, I am sure you despise democracy and liberalcapitalism just like Marx and Lenin did in their books.
Do you dislike liberaldemocracy?
What is wrong with a fair trial in court and why is that not allowed and guaranteed in Cuba?
What is wrong in being able to travel the world, reading books against one's government, write WHATEVER you want and seeing it published, surfing the net and being able to go out in the streets and shout "President is dumb" and quietly coming back home and watching a German or French TV show where your government is ridiculed, WITHOUT any secret police entering your house and arresting you?
What is wrong in going to Church everyday and wanting your President to guarantee the authority of the Church over the spirits of men? Why is that forbidden in Cuba?
Why can't a Cuban leave Cuba LEGALLY?
Why should you be jailed if you are gay, or you are a Jehova's Witness, as it happens in Cuba?
And now tell me how a communist country like Cuba is a better place to live than the US.
Do you dislike liberaldemocracy?
What is wrong with a fair trial in court and why is that not allowed and guaranteed in Cuba?
What is wrong in being able to travel the world, reading books against one's government, write WHATEVER you want and seeing it published, surfing the net and being able to go out in the streets and shout "President is dumb" and quietly coming back home and watching a German or French TV show where your government is ridiculed, WITHOUT any secret police entering your house and arresting you?
What is wrong in going to Church everyday and wanting your President to guarantee the authority of the Church over the spirits of men? Why is that forbidden in Cuba?
Why can't a Cuban leave Cuba LEGALLY?
Why should you be jailed if you are gay, or you are a Jehova's Witness, as it happens in Cuba?
And now tell me how a communist country like Cuba is a better place to live than the US.
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Dark_Mark
Active member
boris116 said:What?! Are you kidding?
Look here:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/may/13.htm
Marxism is materialism. As such, it is as relentlessly hostile to religion as was the materialism of the eighteenth-century Encyclopaedists or the materialism of Feuerbach. This is beyond doubt. But the dialectical materialism of Marx and Engels goes further than the Encyclopaedists and Feuerbach, for it applies the materialist philosophy to the domain of history, to the domain of the social sciences. We must combat religion—that is the ABC of all materialism, and consequently of Marxism. But Marxism is not a materialism which has stopped at the ABC. Marxism goes further. It says: We must know how to combat religion, and in order to do so we must explain the source of faith and religion among the masses in a materialist way. The combating of religion cannot be confined to abstract ideological preaching, and it must not be reduced to such preaching. It must be linked up with the concrete practice of the class movement, which aims at eliminating the social roots of religion.
Can you read Russian? I can provide you with plenty of orders signed by Lenin as a Head of the Government.
Orders to kill - monks, priests, civilians...
How can you be so ignorant?!
Nobody here, even Dark_Mark the Commie
How to combat religion can be (and is) widely interpreted as how to combat the use of religion as an oppressive political tool. You have to put Marx's ideas in the appropriate historical context. During his lifetime European leaders maintained a pact under the guise of Christianity to aid each other in the case of a revolution in each of their countries
And yes, Lenin ordered many monks, priests, and civilians killed - who sided with the White Army. Make no mistake, the Russian civil war was total war.
Radical socialism (because that is actually what we are talking about) has not yielded positive results in many countries because they are backwards and have histories of tyranny, oppression (such as russia and china - no offense), and an authoritarian political culture, or were forced to adopt radical socialism.
However, there have been some important exceptions, such as Cuba. I do think that the revolution has benefitted the Cuban people, and there have been many advances in biotechnology in Cuba. Recently, Cuban scientists made a hepatitis vaccine from plant antibodies. This could slash the production cost of the vaccine, and is the second use of "plantibodies" (the first used in the USA to fight tooth decay).
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1037717
I NEVER said Cuba was a better place to live than the USA, just a better place to live in than 1958 Cuba. You can worship freely in Cuba (ever since Pope John Paul 2 visited), you can leave Cuba legally (how do I know this? my first year spanish teacher left legally with a student visa), and Marxism IS NOT the polar opposite of democracy as long as money does not play a significant role in elections (as it does in many places). You can read whatever books you want, you just have to get them from a public library (as it is illegal to own books because there is such as shortage due to the embargo). People do write whatever they want - it just can't be published because there is very little printing equipment in Cuba, once again thanks to the embargo.
Make no mistake. I am no Soviet communist. I do not abide by the narrow, foolish Soviet/Chinese interpretations of the writings of Marx and Lenin. I am no puppet. My views are more in line with euro and american communists than the traditional view of Marxism-Leninism perpetuated by western capitalists.
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Missileer
Active member
Dark_Mark said:
I'm not convinced of the hepatitus vaccine part because, so far, only Cubans have made the claim and supposedly had the testing performed on themselves. I'll curb my enthusiasm until more of the worldwide scientific community gives it a thumbs up. I hope it is truly a cure because hepatitus is so easily transmitted and can be deadly, especially to children of drug using Mothers.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
In fact that would have been laughable.Dark_Mark said:
Dark_Mark said:
Cuba has been an atheist state for most of the Castro era. In 1962, the government of Fidel Castro seized and shut down more than 400 Catholic schools, charging that they spread dangerous beliefs among the people. Only in 1991 (thirty-two years after the revolution, two years after the fall of the Berlin wall) did the Communist Party lift its prohibition against religious believers seeking membership, and a year later the constitution was amended to characterize the state as secular instead of atheist.
The Catholic Church is the largest independent institution in Cuba today but continues to operate under significant pressure. The Cuban government continues to refuse to allow the Church to have independent printing press capabilities; full access to the media; to train enough priests for its needs or allow adequate number of foreign priests to work in the country; or to establish socially useful institutions, including schools and universities, hospitals and clinics, and nursing homes. How come is this? What does this have to do with the embargo?
You mentioned the Pope's visit. The Pope's visit was seen as an important, positive event for bringing a message of hope (what need for hope was there if Castro had been in power for 36 years by then?) and the need for respect of human rights (why, weren't they ensured??). Unfortunately, these improvements did not continue once the Pope left the island. While some visas were issued for additional priests to enter Cuba around the time of the visit, the practice has once again become extremely limited.
Dark_Mark said:
Did she ever go back to Cuba or she stayed in the US?
Dark_Mark said:
In Cuba there are NO elections, that's the difference. There is one party only and no chance of changing.
Dark_Mark said:
Do you believe your own BS or you just think the others are dumb enough enough to buy it? Wait a second, do you really think you can read whatever books you want in Cuba? Have you ever actually talked to a Cuban? The embargo, uhm, was enforced in 1962, three years after the revolution, and the situation was identical in those three years. Why? Also, why aren't western books against Castro or against communism imported from friendly countries like some European ones?
Dark_Mark said:
People cannot write whatever they want because there is no such thing as a free press. The press is controlled by the government and it cannot criticize it. The embargo, uhm, why doesn't Cuba import printing equipment from Europe (EU's embargo is not on printing materials) or Venezuela or China?
And you didn't address my points on free trial in court, being jailed if you happen to be gay, or a Jehova's Witness, and the part where you should be able to take to the streets shouting "President is an idiot" and safely make it back home.
LOL. Thats the most laughable thing I've read in years. If you seriously believe that... Organisations like the CANF get millions every year by the US government in support. One of the things the used to do was fly over with little aircrafts to Cuba to drop leaflets. Would that make any sense if they could have that stuff legally distributed in Cuba? America has a strong interest in overthrowing the Castro government. If they could they would surely have their own newspaper, tv station and whatnot in Cuba. But they dont because theres not free press in Cuba.Dark_Mark said:
The Cuban government itself does not deny this, they say they put more importance on other, so called "social human rights" like the right to a job, they right to partake in national wealth, the right to free health care and education. Thats as close as any government will ever get to admitting theres no freedom of opinion in their country.
Rob Henderson
Banned
Im just loving how we all seem to know Cuba's inner workings. Not just Dark_Mark, but everyone. Although Dark_Mark is obviously in the dark(no pun intended) about things like no books because of printing equipment(giggles). The embargo didnt and doesnt stop those works from being published, the government you so blissfully follow does.
I think I know what you are saying, but the way you write it, you make it seem like organizations like the Stasi was no big deal. You make it seem like they were just your average police force who beat people once in a while, they do do stuff like that in Mexico, and most third world countries. You make it sound like the Stasi are the equivalent of the Mexican police, I hardly think so.loki said:
I never said they didn't have steaks, I said they hardly had steaks. Again you made it sound like the average GDR family was the equivalent of the average Western family when it comes to amenities.
I agree with you and Boris that you can find and accept life and be relatively happy even in communist countries,---if you know nothing else. This includes places like the GDR, even North Korea, I'm sure people found happiness there. Even during Nazi Germany, alot of people were probably very happy.
But that again is just the status quo. But thats not all that counts, the road to get it where it was funtioning as is, was hell for most of the people who had to endure it. Stalin mass murdering 20 to 40 millions of thier own people counts, for if not for the USSR the GDR would never have existed.
There may not have been any mass murders in the GDR, but the machine that made that country possible did participate in it. Mass murdering of its own people seems to be the case almost everytime communism is to a new region, this goes for Cuba as well.
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