re-accessing WW2

Well, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on many things. But, you should truly do more research on the gas chambers, because even the traditionalists say the did not exist in the German camps. Also SGT Bernard Clarke admitted to beating and torturing Hoess. By the way you say the allies never participated in crimes of this nature. I don't want to be rude man, but what are you, 12 years old. Look up Eisenhower's Rhine Meadow Camps which should be called Eisenhower's Rhine Meadow Death Camps.
Here is the opinion of a truthful American judge.
Charles F. Wennerstrum was an American lawyer from Illinois who served as a judge at some of the 12 subsequent Nuremberg trials. After 8 months at Nuremberg Wennerstrum gave an interview to Hal Foust, a journalist for the Chicago Daily Tribune, who was covering the trials. Wennerstrum expressed his disgust about how the trials had been conducted. He stated the victors of WW2 had used the main Nuremberg trial to whitewash their war crimes and pin the sole blame for the war in the hands of Germany. He also states much of the staff at the trials had only recently become American citizens. And they were imbedded in Europe's hatreds and prejudices. Also, the defence was only given documents deemed necessary to the case by the prosecution. In one case the judge Wennerstrum himself deemed the defence will be allowed to view the entire documents. When he did this, the prosecution complained bitterly. They wanted the defence to only be shown excerps which they deemed necessary. In subsequent weeks the U.S. Military intercepted Wennerstrum's articles and complaints he sent back to the States. He was picked up and interrogated after sending a tele-ticker of his expose of the corruption at the trials. Despite the military's criticism of the judge, he stood by his views and comments his entire life.
You like to denigrate what you call a small clique of revisionists. Maybe you should read some of their works. You may learn something.

Have you read any of the documents stored in an archive in the town Bad Arolsen?
 
Have you read any of the documents stored in an archive in the town Bad Arolsen?

No, I have not. Please share what you know. That is if you have read any of the documents in the town of Bad Arolsen and it is not just hearsay. The Nazi's were capable of horrific acts. They just didn't have homicidal gas chambers.
 
Have you read any of the documents stored in an archive in the town Bad Arolsen?

After a little research, I find it more than a little bit suspicious that only victims of the Nazi's are allowed to see these files. No information is being shown to the public. Maybe some parties didn't like what they read.
 
After a little research, I find it more than a little bit suspicious that only victims of the Nazi's are allowed to see these files. No information is being shown to the public. Maybe some parties didn't like what they read.

One of the purposes of the archive is to assist families to the victims to find out what happened to them. If you are attending the holocaust and genocide department at a university you can get access to the archive as well. This archive is quite new, the documents were collected and placed here. The Germans have documented everything about the victims, from original location of them to the end game at the camps, up to the end of 44, when Himmler ordered the closing of the death camps in the east. The Russians were too close for comfort for the Nazis.

The Nazis were idiots, it's a really bad idea to document and even film crimes. These documents, photos and films are the primary sources, made by the Nazis.

You are saying the Nazis were tortured to extract confessions, so my question to you is; who tortured the Nazis when they were in power?

Another question is; can you provide with any primary sources that dismiss the existence of the gas chambers in the death camps? No guessing and no secondary sources.
 
Does it matter how these people died?
We know roughly how many people were killed does it matter whether it was 1 million or 20 million, would it be less of a crime if it was 1 million?

We know the Germans built the camps and we know that conditions in them were brutal.
To argue that there were no gas chambers and everyone died of Typhus and other diseases doesn't make the crimes any less as those diseases were treatable yet left untreated in the prisoners while I have yet to see a case of a German guard die of the disease.

The reality is that the conditions and practices that existed in the camps alone are a big enough crime to have justified Germany's destruction the numbers murdered and the manner of death don't really change anything.

Personally I tend to believe there is enough evidence to say the death camps operated in the generally accepted manner and the numbers killed in them are reasonably accurate (they may be thousands out more or less but they are not millions out).
 
Does it matter how these people died?
We know roughly how many people were killed does it matter whether it was 1 million or 20 million, would it be less of a crime if it was 1 million?

1st off it matters greatly that 12 million died in the camps vs. 1 million. That's 12 million people and their friends and families that were effected, thus resulting in a much bigger tragedy much more pain, much more loss, much more suffering. Then we throw in the (12 to 15) million that were murdered outside the camps, prisons, ghetto's and you start to get an idea of just how many individuals suffered in 6 years mostly in the last 4 years.
 
1st off it matters greatly that 12 million died in the camps vs. 1 million. That's 12 million people and their friends and families that were effected, thus resulting in a much bigger tragedy much more pain, much more loss, much more suffering. Then we throw in the (12 to 15) million that were murdered outside the camps, prisons, ghetto's and you start to get an idea of just how many individuals suffered in 6 years mostly in the last 4 years.

Steal $1000 or steal a $1000000 it really makes no difference you are still a thief, murder 10 people or 10 million people you are still a mass murderer.

In this case does it really matter whether 10 million died in the camps or 10 million and 2 people died in the camps the magnitude of the crime ceases to be about numbers and becomes about processes and psychology.
 
One of the purposes of the archive is to assist families to the victims to find out what happened to them. If you are attending the holocaust and genocide department at a university you can get access to the archive as well. This archive is quite new, the documents were collected and placed here. The Germans have documented everything about the victims, from original location of them to the end game at the camps, up to the end of 44, when Himmler ordered the closing of the death camps in the east. The Russians were too close for comfort for the Nazis.

The Nazis were idiots, it's a really bad idea to document and even film crimes. These documents, photos and films are the primary sources, made by the Nazis.

You are saying the Nazis were tortured to extract confessions, so my question to you is; who tortured the Nazis when they were in power?

Another question is; can you provide with any primary sources that dismiss the existence of the gas chambers in the death camps? No guessing and no secondary sources.

The only evidence of gas chambers is eyewitness testimony. You can call me callous, but that isn't good enough. Where was the Hitler order. It doesn't exist either. There was a Hitler order for the murder of the mentally ill. Can you provide proof that there were gas chambers. I know you cannot.
 
Steal $1000 or steal a $1000000 it really makes no difference you are still a thief, murder 10 people or 10 million people you are still a mass murderer.

In this case does it really matter whether 10 million died in the camps or 10 million and 2 people died in the camps the magnitude of the crime ceases to be about numbers and becomes about processes and psychology.

No one is saying that the Nazi's did not commit a gross crime. They did. All I am arguing is the homicidal gas chamber stories are just that, stories. There is no evidence, no forensic evidence. A little under 800 Jews survived Auschwitz. Why do we only hear from the same 7 or so people. I would certainly like to hear what the others have to say. Here is a fact. More German soldiers died in the first 2 years of peace than in the previous 6 years of war. The Allies committed crimes just as heinous as the Nazis.
 
The only evidence of gas chambers is eyewitness testimony. You can call me callous, but that isn't good enough. Where was the Hitler order. It doesn't exist either. There was a Hitler order for the murder of the mentally ill. Can you provide proof that there were gas chambers. I know you cannot.

Wrong answer, do it again and do it right, show the primary aka German sources for what you are saying. The German archives describes how the victims died, they even describe their health, how many lice they had. If you cannot get access to the archives is not my problem, get an education and you get the access. You are speculating and guessing, only amateurs do that.
 
Wrong answer, do it again and do it right, show the primary aka German sources for what you are saying. The German archives describes how the victims died, they even describe their health, how many lice they had. If you cannot get access to the archives is not my problem, get an education and you get the access. You are speculating and guessing, only amateurs do that.

I think you are wrong here, if you have evidence to the contrary that is not accessible to others then it is up to you to provide it or at best it is anecdotal.

Now just for the sake of putting up a slightly more coherant defense on this one as I am of the opinion that Occams Razor applies here just as elsewhere I will however throw the cat amongst the pidgeons and put forward an argument against gas chambers...

There are currently 5 criteria in the argument over whether gas chambers existed or not:

1. Written documents--Orders for Zyklon-B gas, blueprints and orders for building materials for the crematoria, etc.

2. Eyewitness testimony--Sonderkommando diaries, confessions of guards and commandants, etc.

3. Photographs--Not only of the camps, but especially interesting are the secret photos taken of the burning of bodies that were smuggled out of Auschwitz.

4. The camps themselves--forensic tests have now been conducted demonstrating the homicidal use of both the gas chambers and the crematoria for the express purpose of exterminating large numbers of prisoners (Pressac, 1989; Pressac and Van Pelt, 1994).

5. Negative evidence--we have documentation of the numbers of prisoners shipped to the various camps, the numbers that were transferred, and the number liberated. The difference between the latter with the former two figures gives an approximation of the numbers who died or were killed (see Hilberg, 1961).


Not one of these criteria is a smoking gun that says people were actually gased.

1. Zyklon B is a dual use material and was used for funigation and we all know about the cremetoria no one is denying the Nazis burnt the bodies of their victims but nothing in that proves people were gased therefore at best it is circumstantial, you have a gas that can kill people and dead people that is it.

2. Testimonies of people involved we have a few many were extracted through torture which we know is unreliable and I would certainly be very weary of anything coming from the Russian side and lets face it everything that went wrong for the Germans was from the time of Hitlers death, Hitlers fault and the Sonderkommando would have said anything to keep themselves alive as seen by their actions through the war in supporting the Germans in the camps.

As some validation I take you back to the hearings on the Iraqi invasion of Kuweit in 1992...

The Nayirah testimony was a testimony given before the non-governmental Congressional Human Rights Caucus on October 10, 1990 by a 15 year old girl who provided only her first name, Nayirah.

The testimony was widely publicized, and was cited numerous times by United States senators and the American president in their rationale to back Kuwait in the Gulf War. In 1992, it was revealed that Nayirah's last name was al-Ṣabaḥ (Arabic: نيره الصباح‎) and that she was the daughter of Saud Al-Sabah, the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States.

Furthermore, it was revealed that her testimony was organized as part of the Citizens for a Free Kuwait public relations campaign which was run by Hill & Knowlton for the Kuwaiti government. Following this, al-Sabah's testimony has come to be regarded as a classic example of modern atrocity propaganda.

In her emotional testimony, Nayirah stated that after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait she had witnessed Iraqi soldiers take babies out of incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital, take the incubators, and leave the babies to die.

Her story was initially corroborated by Amnesty International and testimony from evacuees. Following the liberation of Kuwait, reporters were given access to the country. An ABC report found that "patients, including premature babies, did die, when many of Kuwait's nurses and doctors... fled" but Iraqi troops "almost certainly had not stolen hospital incubators and left hundreds of Kuwaiti babies to die."

Amnesty International reacted by issuing a correction, with executive director John Healey subsequently accusing the Bush administration of "opportunistic manipulation of the international human rights movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_%28testimony%29

3. Secret photographs of burning bodies is only evidence of death and not how they died. I would point to Sachsenhausen concentration camp as an example it had cremetoria but it didn't have gas chambers.

4. Is an after the fact test, it does not prove that gas chambers existed only that if they did they would have worked, we have seen how propaganda works with all the chemical weapons nonsense leading up to the Iraq war there is nothing to say that this is any different.

5. Negative evidence knowing how many started and how many were left does indeed tell us how many died but once again not how they died.

As I have pointed out I do still believe that the gas chambers existed but we have seen numerous examples in the post war years of propaganda being generated to justify all sorts of things and we have seen how WW2 propaganda has become enshrined as fact in almost every major event of WW2 so it is not hard to see how aspects of the holocaust can be disputed and why I believe that everything should be open to an honest review.


 
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Not one of these criteria is a smoking gun that says people were actually gased.[/quote
Physical gas chambers used for the liquidation of inmates are shown in the 4 part series “Original Nazi Concentration Camp Videos Uncensored”. The US Army filmed what they found, straightway.


Mate they filmed a showerhead, a valve handle, a can of cyanide none of which were in the same room and filled in the rest with story assuming you mean part 4 of the video at around 8 minutes?

Now before people start bleating on that I am denying something or other, I am not I fully understand the crimes perpetrated in the death camps and even accept the numbers killed and as I believe the story as it currently stands from gas chambers to Einsatzgruppen but 30 years ago I believed a lot of things that have since turned out to be false as well so I am at least prepared to listen to his arguments.

To date I dont think he has denied what happened only how it happened and within those parameters I am happy to hear him out.
 
Mate they filmed a showerhead, a valve handle, a can of cyanide none of which were in the same room and filled in the rest with story assuming you mean part 4 of the video at around 8 minutes?

The Canadian states that allies were equally as murderous as the Nazis and that the number of Germans killed – died in the Rhineland Meadows Camps was equal to that of the total number of German war dead which was around 5 million men. Wrong many sources (I covered this earlier) state that (3 to 10) thousand German POW’s of 2 million died while under the Allies care at the Rhineland Meadows Camps.


Then he claims a lynch pin witness at Nuremburg Hoes had his testimony forced out of him by severe torture. Check out the reliability of the supporters of this claim.

As for the gas chamber shown in the “Original Nazi Concentration Camp Uncensored” Videos. One the purpose of the films was not to go on about gas chambers but to simply show what was found starvation, torture, beating, diseases, medical experiments and execution methods of which gassing was one. What on do you expect them to show? Testimony about a gas chamber is given in episode 3 ~ 5 minutes and is shown in 4 ~ 8minutes. The lethal gas chamber at Dachau is shown in full, including multiple shower heads of the type usually usually assocated with lethal gassing. All in the large room with the large solid door at the entrance. The plumping and controls for the flow of gas is also shown. This would be a smaller gas chamber than the ones used at Auschwitz. It was not the purpose of the film to make a documentary about gas chambers just to film the horrors they encountered including gas chambers at Dachau, get a grip.
Some more mention and evidence of Gas chambers is made in this film: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V0RMf2qU18"]The Liberation of Auschwitz (includes 1945 original Red Army footage) - YouTube[/ame]

It also the final product of the prisoners at Buchenwald is shown to be bone ash (crushed bone) if you look into the Canadians claims this was not possible.
 
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I think you are wrong here, if you have evidence to the contrary that is not accessible to others then it is up to you to provide it or at best it is anecdotal.

Now just for the sake of putting up a slightly more coherant defense on this one as I am of the opinion that Occams Razor applies here just as elsewhere I will however throw the cat amongst the pidgeons and put forward an argument against gas chambers...

There are currently 5 criteria in the argument over whether gas chambers existed or not:

1. Written documents--Orders for Zyklon-B gas, blueprints and orders for building materials for the crematoria, etc.

2. Eyewitness testimony--Sonderkommando diaries, confessions of guards and commandants, etc.

3. Photographs--Not only of the camps, but especially interesting are the secret photos taken of the burning of bodies that were smuggled out of Auschwitz.

4. The camps themselves--forensic tests have now been conducted demonstrating the homicidal use of both the gas chambers and the crematoria for the express purpose of exterminating large numbers of prisoners (Pressac, 1989; Pressac and Van Pelt, 1994).

5. Negative evidence--we have documentation of the numbers of prisoners shipped to the various camps, the numbers that were transferred, and the number liberated. The difference between the latter with the former two figures gives an approximation of the numbers who died or were killed (see Hilberg, 1961).


Not one of these criteria is a smoking gun that says people were actually gased.

1. Zyklon B is a dual use material and was used for funigation and we all know about the cremetoria no one is denying the Nazis burnt the bodies of their victims but nothing in that proves people were gased therefore at best it is circumstantial, you have a gas that can kill people and dead people that is it.

2. Testimonies of people involved we have a few many were extracted through torture which we know is unreliable and I would certainly be very weary of anything coming from the Russian side and lets face it everything that went wrong for the Germans was from the time of Hitlers death, Hitlers fault and the Sonderkommando would have said anything to keep themselves alive as seen by their actions through the war in supporting the Germans in the camps.

As some validation I take you back to the hearings on the Iraqi invasion of Kuweit in 1992...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_%28testimony%29

3. Secret photographs of burning bodies is only evidence of death and not how they died. I would point to Sachsenhausen concentration camp as an example it had cremetoria but it didn't have gas chambers.

4. Is an after the fact test, it does not prove that gas chambers existed only that if they did they would have worked, we have seen how propaganda works with all the chemical weapons nonsense leading up to the Iraq war there is nothing to say that this is any different.

5. Negative evidence knowing how many started and how many were left does indeed tell us how many died but once again not how they died.

As I have pointed out I do still believe that the gas chambers existed but we have seen numerous examples in the post war years of propaganda being generated to justify all sorts of things and we have seen how WW2 propaganda has become enshrined as fact in almost every major event of WW2 so it is not hard to see how aspects of the holocaust can be disputed and why I believe that everything should be open to an honest review.



There is always an issue when you need to pay the fees to get access to sources and if I violate that and they found out and they will. I will be forced to pay. I have seen the blueprints of the chambers in Auschwitz and Treblinka, not the other camps. I have seen the correspondence between Auschwitz and WVHA.

One way to get around the fees is to sign up at the university. Then the university pays the fees. Although, if we want to get access to any scientific journal we need to pay for it, they aren't for free. Archives aren't for free either. University libraries aren't open for the public either, you must either be a student or be working there to get access. The journals are really expensive as well.

I agree with not trusting the Soviet data about the Germans, but hardly any scientists in the West believed it anyway. Although, the approach to study the holocaust is to study the methodology about it. The steps leading up to Wannsee, the dehumanization processes, removing the Jews (and others) from the economic life. When the Germans documented everything and by the way. Himmler's archive was captured intact by the British. One document from the Wannsee conference survived the war.
 
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Let us assume there were no gas chambers and diseases and starvation killed of many of the missing people. What do we know about the most common diseases which appear during circumstances like the camps.

One of the most common diseases is Typhoid Fever, the Typhoid fever is caused by the bacteria Salmonella typhi, it is spread through poor sanitation and infected water sources. Food handled in the same poor environment will be spreading the bacteria further. The incubation time is about one - two weeks after the infection. The symptoms are high fever, headache, stomach pains, muscle ache, diarrhea (mostly among children) constipation (mostly among adults) Rash can appear on the body. Without treatment it's fatal within a few weeks. The time can be shortened by the general health of the people infected by salmonella typhi. However, the amount of missing people from all over Europe cannot have been killed by Typhoid, the disease works too slow for being the major killer, even if the victims were weakened by starvation and physical labor.

Dysentery; there are two different kinds of dysentery. The most common one in Europe is caused by the bacteria shigella and occasionally the disease is called shigellosis. The other one is caused by an amoeba, this one is common in the tropics. The symptom is more or less the same as for the Typhoid, but with one difference, the bloody diarrhea. Usually, dysentery is not fatal, but if we take the conditions in the camps to an account, the mortality rate increases. Still with both of these diseases, too many of the inmates had survived the diseases, and we have all the missing Jews, gypsies and others to explain where they went.

Starvation can explain further fatalities in the camps, and it will increase the effect of the diseases.
 
There is always an issue when you need to pay the fees to get access to sources and if I violate that and they found out and they will. I will be forced to pay. I have seen the blueprints of the chambers in Auschwitz and Treblinka, not the other camps. I have seen the correspondence between Auschwitz and WVHA.

One way to get around the fees is to sign up at the university. Then the university pays the fees. Although, if we want to get access to any scientific journal we need to pay for it, they aren't for free. Archives aren't for free either. University libraries aren't open for the public either, you must either be a student or be working there to get access. The journals are really expensive as well.

I agree with not trusting the Soviet data about the Germans, but hardly any scientists in the West believed it anyway. Although, the approach to study the holocaust is to study the methodology about it. The steps leading up to Wannsee, the dehumanization processes, removing the Jews (and others) from the economic life. When the Germans documented everything and by the way. Himmler's archive was captured intact by the British. One document from the Wannsee conference survived the war.

You may want to check on the rules regarding their information as most archives I belong to allow you to publish a certain percentage of a document before it becomes an issue.

As far as the Germans documenting everything surely that is a double edged sword as the fact that they did not document Hitlers involvement in the decision making process is in itself an anomaly especially since he micromanaged almost everything else.
 
You may want to check on the rules regarding their information as most archives I belong to allow you to publish a certain percentage of a document before it becomes an issue.

As far as the Germans documenting everything surely that is a double edged sword as the fact that they did not document Hitlers involvement in the decision making process is in itself an anomaly especially since he micromanaged almost everything else.

I've worked in engineering and you have to belong to a society to get the journals and you have to 1st pay for membership to the IEEE and then pay again to the particular society you want to receive the publications from.

Other publications from other societies cost an addition fee and all you can read is an quick synopses about the paper without purchasing it. It wouldn't surprise me if most of Academia works this way.
 
I've worked in engineering and you have to belong to a society to get the journals and you have to 1st pay for membership to the IEEE and then pay again to the particular society you want to receive the publications from.

Other publications from other societies cost an addition fee and all you can read is an quick synopses about the paper without purchasing it. It wouldn't surprise me if most of Academia works this way.


They work like that, all scientific archives and journals are only open for those it belongs to. A MD has access to all archives and journals within the health sector, if he wants to read articles about something in the field of history or political science, he or she must pay the fees to get access. To get access to the archives and journals about the holocaust and genocide studies you must be in that fields of history, holocaust and genocide, or IR to get access without paying the fees.

Even public libraries can have restrictions about getting access. The Imperial War Museum has a huge library/archive, but the public is restricted to get access to it. The Smithsonian works in the same way, what is on display is accessible, but the storage and the archives are closed for the public
 
They work like that, all scientific archives and journals are only open for those it belongs to. A MD has access to all archives and journals within the health sector, if he wants to read articles about something in the field of history or political science, he or she must pay the fees to get access. To get access to the archives and journals about the holocaust and genocide studies you must be in that fields of history, holocaust and genocide, or IR to get access without paying the fees.

Even public libraries can have restrictions about getting access. The Imperial War Museum has a huge library/archive, but the public is restricted to get access to it. The Smithsonian works in the same way, what is on display is accessible, but the storage and the archives are closed for the public

This is exactly my point though, you can not chastise someone for not having access to information when that information is not publicly available.

Outside of that I disagree with you, through my job I am given access to various archives and academic journals (subscription based sites) and I use those often when I post here and will post sections from those sites.

If I can not post the whole document I generally will at a minimum search the internet for a copy of the document and link it or give the full name of the paper and its authors to ensure people can look it up.
 
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