re-accessing WW2

You have watched too many holocaust movies. I'm sure Hollywood will have another one in a week or two. Rudolph Hoess was tortured. He was whipped and had his testicles crushed. And if that wasn't enough, they threatened to harm his family if he didn't testify the way they wanted him to. Most SS men and commandants were tortured and blackmailed. And, that is from certain allied members of the war crimes commission who were sickened by the barbarity of fellow soldiers. The war crimes commission after the war was a complete fraud. It was pursued with vindictiveness and vengeance and revenge. It was no better than a soviet show trial. Everybody knew the prisoners were going to be found guilty. The only thing they had to figure out was the length of the rope for the hangings. And if you want to believe the preposterous stories of the so-called eye witnesses to the so-called holocaust you obviously are not using any critical thinking. Here is something to think about. Why is the second world war and the Nazi policy towards the Jews at the time, the only history that cannot be debated or scrutinized without fear of imprisonment fines or both. What are certain organizations trying to hide. The truth doesn't need the protection of laws. But, I'm afraid lies do.

The Germans provided with the primary sources, they documented everything they did. The documentation span from 1933-1945. You can try to read this data. Where the commandants tortured during this time period. If you are following the epistemology you will reach another conclusion instead of coming up with an opinion. Do it again and do it right
 
You have watched too many holocaust movies. I'm sure Hollywood will have another one in a week or two. Rudolph Hoess was tortured. He was whipped and had his testicles crushed. And if that wasn't enough, they threatened to harm his family if he didn't testify the way they wanted him to. Most SS men and commandants were tortured and blackmailed. And, that is from certain allied members of the war crimes commission who were sickened by the barbarity of fellow soldiers. The war crimes commission after the war was a complete fraud. It was pursued with vindictiveness and vengeance and revenge. It was no better than a soviet show trial. Everybody knew the prisoners were going to be found guilty. The only thing they had to figure out was the length of the rope for the hangings. And if you want to believe the preposterous stories of the so-called eye witnesses to the so-called holocaust you obviously are not using any critical thinking. Here is something to think about. Why is the second world war and the Nazi policy towards the Jews at the time, the only history that cannot be debated or scrutinized without fear of imprisonment fines or both. What are certain organizations trying to hide. The truth doesn't need the protection of laws. But, I'm afraid lies do.

No not Hollywood but the accredited writing of professor, eyewitnesses and historians (some of which I've already provided to you). In addition I've known people who lived in the Ukraine during the Nazi occupation and can testify 1st hand to atrocities. I've meet GI's that took place in the liberation of the camps in 45.
What accredited sources do you derive your lies from? Seems you have latched on to the writing of a few Neo -Nazi revisionist and believed it hook, line and sinker.
 
No not Hollywood but the accredited writing of professor, eyewitnesses and historians (some of which I've already provided to you). In addition I've known people who lived in the Ukraine during the Nazi occupation and can testify 1st hand to atrocities. I've meet GI's that took place in the liberation of the camps in 45.
What accredited sources do you derive your lies from? Seems you have latched on to the writing of a few Neo -Nazi revisionist and believed it hook, line and sinker.

You know what you can do with the eye witnesses. The G.I.'s only liberated western European camps. There were no gas chambers in Western camps. Actually, there were no gas chambers in the Eastern camps either. But the BS continues. And by the way I am no Neo-Nazi. Hitler did enough in that war for me as an individual to realize the man was paranoid and sick. But, that doesn't excuse the nonsense about the gas chamber nonsense. I do not agree with all revisionists. But, I do agree with some. Have you ever wondered why the Rhine meadow camps were set up by Eisenhower. These camps murdered millions of German soldiers and civilians. You may even not know about them.. Check it out..
 
The witness from the Ukraine was my ex boss and a family friend for 20 years. A salt of the earth type man. An honest hardworking engineer who was a lot more credible than you. My uncle Steve Liberated the camps and told of unspeakable horrors. You have a lot of nerve and B.S. to speak against such men as them. I provided you with some details on gas chambers from the Auschwitz - Birkennau death camp.
Facts which you refuse to believe.
You still didn't provide me with your accredited sources and historians?
Several million Germans died between 45 to 47 during the large refugee crisis that ensued as the Reich fell. Many were killed by the Soviets, and to a lesser extent Czech, Polish and other nationals. Some of exposure and starvation as they moved from their homes in the east to their new homes in west. The Americans were not a party to these deaths - killings (again your sources). Read "The Great Big Book of Horrible Things".
 
The witness from the Ukraine was my ex boss and a family friend for 20 years. A salt of the earth type man. An honest hardworking engineer who was a lot more credible than you. My uncle Steve Liberated the camps and told of unspeakable horrors. You have a lot of nerve and B.S. to speak against such men as them. I provided you with some details on gas chambers from the Auschwitz - Birkennau death camp.
Facts which you refuse to believe.
You still didn't provide me with your accredited sources and historians?
Several million Germans died between 45 to 47 during the large refugee crisis that ensued as the Reich fell. Many were killed by the Soviets, and to a lesser extent Czech, Polish and other nationals. Some of exposure and starvation as they moved from their homes in the east to their new homes in west. The Americans were not a party to these deaths - killings (again your sources). Read "The Great Big Book of Horrible Things".

Actually you haven't provided me with anything that that can be regarded as fact. The Eisenhower Rhine Meddow camps murdered millions after the was was over. For God sake man do a little bit of research.
 
Actually you haven't provided me with anything that that can be regarded as fact. The Eisenhower Rhine Meddow camps murdered millions after the was was over. For God sake man do a little bit of research.

You have provided no accredited: links, professors, historians, books. I've research WW2 for 20 years. You are still beating around the bush about your accredited sources and historians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager a quick Wikipedia reference of your Rhineland Meadows camps states 3 to 10 thousand deaths which is surprisingly high. It seems the allies didn't have the logistics to handle 2 million German POW's.
 
You know what you can do with the eye witnesses. The G.I.'s only liberated western European camps. There were no gas chambers in Western camps. Actually, there were no gas chambers in the Eastern camps either. But the BS continues. And by the way I am no Neo-Nazi. Hitler did enough in that war for me as an individual to realize the man was paranoid and sick. But, that doesn't excuse the nonsense about the gas chamber nonsense. I do not agree with all revisionists. But, I do agree with some. Have you ever wondered why the Rhine meadow camps were set up by Eisenhower. These camps murdered millions of German soldiers and civilians. You may even not know about them.. Check it out..

Where to start? Ok, we can begin with the primary sources (google that when you don't know the significance of the primary sources in studies in the field of humanities, history belongs there in the academic world) You have complete failed with deductive studies of the genocide during the second world war. You also fail with being unbiased, you only regard sources that supports your hypothesis and ignore those which contradict your sources. In many ways, you are doing the same mistake as the majority of the conspiracy theorists.
 
Actually you haven't provided me with anything that that can be regarded as fact. The Eisenhower Rhine Meddow camps murdered millions after the was was over. For God sake man do a little bit of research.

Ok I guess I should ask, where did all these people go?

I am a resonable man I am prepare to accept that the 11 to 15 million people attributed to dieing in the death camps might be out by lets say a few million lets say half and we will round down just to aid your cause so 5 million people are sent to the resort vacaction spots of Dachau and Auschwitz and dont come back.

Where did they go?

Were they having so much fun they died of heart attacks, perhaps alien abduction?

The reality is we have x amount of people at the start of this process and y amount at the end, explain the difference.
 
Ok I guess I should ask, where did all these people go?

I am a resonable man I am prepare to accept that the 11 to 15 million people attributed to dieing in the death camps might be out by lets say a few million lets say half and we will round down just to aid your cause so 5 million people are sent to the resort vacaction spots of Dachau and Auschwitz and dont come back.

Where did they go?

Were they having so much fun they died of heart attacks, perhaps alien abduction?

The reality is we have x amount of people at the start of this process and y amount at the end, explain the difference.

I blame the Martians. Ever heard of Foo Fighters??? NO NOT the band!!!!!:roll:
 
Ok I guess I should ask, where did all these people go?

I am a resonable man I am prepare to accept that the 11 to 15 million people attributed to dieing in the death camps might be out by lets say a few million lets say half and we will round down just to aid your cause so 5 million people are sent to the resort vacaction spots of Dachau and Auschwitz and dont come back.

Where did they go?

Were they having so much fun they died of heart attacks, perhaps alien abduction?

The reality is we have x amount of people at the start of this process and y amount at the end, explain the difference.

Why do you assume 11 to 15 million died in these camps? The camps in the east were liberated by the Soviets. You had no chance of getting the truth out of the former Soviet Union. Stalin's propaganda machine was working overtime, painting the Germans as vicious beasts, barbarians and soul-less madmen. And, it is ironic that the rape of eastern and central Europe was perpetrated by the Soviets, while Stalin was condemning the German's as brutal invaders. How many concentration camp inmates went east with the red army? How many were sent back as forced labour?
At Auschwitz before the Soviets arrived, the inmates were asked to come with them westward or stay to be liberated by the red army. The intelligent ones went west with the Wehrmacht. Even one of today's Jewish leaders Abraham Foxxman decided to leave with the Germans.
Also, during the summer of 42 a major typhus epidemic swept through the Nazi camp system in the east. The most severely affected was Auschwitz. There was a smaller epidemic in 43 and another severe one in 44.
The 6 million number is a preposterous exaggeration. The number of deaths was probably in the hundreds of thousands. But, most deaths were due to typhus and starvation due to the transportation infrastructure being destroyed by allied bombings. There are also many inmates of Auschwitz who told the truth about the camps. In effect, they were slave labour camps to keep the German war machine going. They shouldn't have been there. It was a crime. And yes Hitler was a paranoid madman. But, it is quite apparent through forensic investigation, the gas chamber story is just that, a story.
 
Ok well lets forget numbers for a moment, what sort of conditions do people have to live in for Typhus and starvation to be the main cause of death?

Now I will go back to numbers, once again can you explain a large number of people of all ages are recorded as alive and healthy on one particular date have either vanished without trace or been recorded as dead within a relatively short space of time?
 
Maybe I am not fully understanding the question. I would suppose very large numbers of people would die from typhus if nutrition and fresh water were almost non-existent. The rail infrastructure was pretty much destroyed by the end of 44 and all through 45. And again, no one really knows what went on in the Soviet territory back then.

I am not saying huge numbers of people did not die because of Nazi policy, because they did. I am just saying it did not happen with homicidal gas chambers.
 
Maybe I am not fully understanding the question. I would suppose very large numbers of people would die from typhus if nutrition and fresh water were almost non-existent. The rail infrastructure was pretty much destroyed by the end of 44 and all through 45. And again, no one really knows what went on in the Soviet territory back then.

I am not saying huge numbers of people did not die because of Nazi policy, because they did. I am just saying it did not happen with homicidal gas chambers.


Again you are trying to shift blame on the allies by accusing them of bombing out the railways to the camps. You are mistaken the 100,000's of Hungarian Jews were shipped to the death camps in 44 without incident. The trains into eastern Poland ran just fine. You are stating the views of a fringe that wants to deny a terrible crime. The engineered murdering of Jews via the Gas chambers. The Nazi's did this because they could get rid of Jews and others en mass more efficiently than shooting, starvation, etc. This was a result of the Wannesee Conference where the final solution (liquidation) of the Jews was decided upon.


Some more links on the use of gas chambers used in the extermination of the Jews’ by the Nazi’s and the final solution.

Again the Nazi's ran the most prolific killing - murder machine in history killing ~ 12 million in death - concentration camps and (12 to 15) million shot, starved, burned alive with their towns and villages in the occupied Europe all in less than 6 years. The liquidation of the Jews was only one of the crimes committed by the Nazi's.

Oh and not Hollywood, but history.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10005477
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-12.html
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2000/jan/26/irving.uk
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...-Chambers#into
http://degob.org/index.php?showarticle=2031
 
Again you are trying to shift blame on the allies by accusing them of bombing out the railways to the camps. You are mistaken the 100,000's of Hungarian Jews were shipped to the death camps in 44 without incident. The trains into eastern Poland ran just fine. You are stating the views of a fringe that wants to deny a terrible crime. The engineered murdering of Jews via the Gas chambers. The Nazi's did this because they could get rid of Jews and others en mass more efficiently than shooting, starvation, etc. This was a result of the Wannesee Conference where the final solution (liquidation) of the Jews was decided upon.


Some more links on the use of gas chambers used in the extermination of the Jews’ by the Nazi’s and the final solution.

Again the Nazi's ran the most prolific killing - murder machine in history killing ~ 12 million in death - concentration camps and (12 to 15) million shot, starved, burned alive with their towns and villages in the occupied Europe all in less than 6 years. The liquidation of the Jews was only one of the crimes committed by the Nazi's.

Oh and not Hollywood, but history.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10005477
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-12.html
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2000/jan/26/irving.uk
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...-Chambers#into
http://degob.org/index.php?showarticle=2031

Again, you are giving me opinions, not proof. If you can find any forensic proof that gas chambers existed, I will listen. But, saying this guy said this and that other guy said the same thing and they didn't know each other doesn't mean anything. It could mean the same people who tortured Hoess also got to the other individual. What is the agenda of making it illegal to have a different opinion about what happened in these camps. Nothing in this world should be so sacred it cannot be scrutinized. The truth does not need a law to protect it, but lies do.
I earlier said Abraham Foxman was at Auschwits. I was mistaken. He was put in the care of Catholic family in Poland and was unscathed during the war. And if you are really interested in the truth, look at the entire Irving/Lipstadt trial documents. Everyone of Lipstadt's so-called expert witnesses were all bought. Some with amounts close to a million dollars. You aren't going to get unbiased opinions when that kind of money is an incentive. Irving defended himself and actually did a very good job. He was much more knowledgeable than all of Lipstadt's witnesses put together. And do you really believe a judge is going to commit professional suicide by siding with the real person who won the argument. The organizations against Irving are just too powerful. Irving never should have defended himself. He should have understood how this smarmy business really works. As for Deborah Lipstadt, she is nothing but a bigoted vitriolic old hag who will not be remembered in 50 years. But, David Irving will be.
 
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Again, you are giving me opinions, not proof. If you can find any forensic proof that gas chambers existed, I will listen. But, saying this guy said this and that other guy said the same thing and they didn't know each other doesn't mean anything. It could mean the same people who tortured Hoess also got to the other individual. What is the agenda of making it illegal to have a different opinion about what happened in these camps. Nothing in this world should be so sacred it cannot be scrutinized. The truth does not need a law to protect it, but lies do.
I earlier said Abraham Foxman was at Auschwits. I was mistaken. He was put in the care of Catholic family in Poland and was unscathed during the war. And if you are really interested in the truth, look at the entire Irving/Lipstadt trial documents. Everyone of Lipstadt's so-called expert witnesses were all bought. Some with amounts close to a million dollars. You aren't going to get unbiased opinions when that kind of money is an incentive. Irving defended himself and actually did a very good job. He was much more knowledgeable than all of Lipstadt's witnesses put together. And do you really believe a judge is going to commit professional suicide by siding with the real person who won the argument. The organizations against Irving are just too powerful. Irving never should have defended himself. He should have understood how this smarmy business really works. As for Deborah Lipstadt, she is nothing but a bigoted vitriolic old hag who will not be remembered in 50 years. But, David Irving will be.

Did you read all the links provided? Physical evidence of gas chambers and the Final Solution is included amongst them. Nothing I have ever read in 20 years speaks about the Allies torturing the commandant of Auschwitz.

I have provided you with links, books written by accredited sources. Have you read them? I can really do no more than state the truth and provide you with resources, something you seem unable to investigate or provide.

You initially state you have read 2 highly dubious controversy books. That seems to be the end of your research because if it wasn't you almost certainly come to another conclusion.

As admitted early on the Allies did what was needed to win the war including bombing and shelling that resulted in deaths of many civilians. But lets not forget for a moment who the bad guys were in this conflict.
 
Did you read all the links provided? Physical evidence of gas chambers and the Final Solution is included amongst them. Nothing I have ever read in 20 years speaks about the Allies torturing the commandant of Auschwitz.

I have provided you with links, books written by accredited sources. Have you read them? I can really do no more than state the truth and provide you with resources, something you seem unable to investigate or provide.

You initially state you have read 2 highly dubious controversy books. That seems to be the end of your research because if it wasn't you almost certainly come to another conclusion.

As admitted early on the Allies did what was needed to win the war including bombing and shelling that resulted in deaths of many civilians. But lets not forget for a moment who the bad guys were in this conflict.

JOC me old mucker, you are banging your head against a brick wall.:bang: Just like that. Its nice when it stops.
 
If sensitive please don't watch, these are terrible crimes. A picture is worth a thousand words. Please lets not say this is a conspiracy dreamed up by the US Army. Many many more such films exist taken by the Allies and even by the Germans themselves. End of Story

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz65pzbi2r4"]Original Nazi Concentration Camp Video Uncensored - part 2 - YouTube[/ame]
 
If sensitive please don't watch, these are terrible crimes. A picture is worth a thousand words. Please lets not say this is a conspiracy dreamed up by the US Army. Many many more such films exist taken by the Allies and even by the Germans themselves. End of Story

Original Nazi Concentration Camp Video Uncensored - part 2 - YouTube

Were a good portion of the Nazi's sadistic bastards? Unquestionably.. But you have shown me a circa 1945 propaganda film created to foment hatred towards the Germans. And it was successful. It has been successful for many decades. But it doesn't prove anything. Wait, it proves the Nazi's had sadists like every other army. The mentally ill would have been given injections to kill them. And, the nazi's did that. But, the first film mentions gas chambers and there were no gas chambers in the Reich or the western European territories. Even the traditionalist holocaust scholars admit that now.
You also say you never read any thing about Hoess being tortured. He was tortured by a British sergeant by the mane of Bernard Clarke. In his history Legions of death, author Rupert Butler at the beginning of the book expresses his gratitude to certain institutions and amoung others, to two persons, one of who was Bernard Clarke. The author quotes Clarke. He says Clarke shows no remorse. On the contrary, he exhibits a certain pride in having tortured a Nazi. Rupert Butler also finds nothing to criticize in that. Neither of them seemed to understand the importance of their revelation. They say that Hoess was arrested on 11 march 1946, and it took three days of torture to obtain a coherent statement. Of course it is nothing more than the lunatic confession, signed by their quivering victim.
The allies needed confessions simply because they had no real evidence for their monstrous and sometimes idiotic claims. They had no autopsies which showed prisoners were gassed. They had no documents or even any credible theory as to how crimes of such magnitude could have been committed. And, getting confessions was easy. You asked me to do more research, maybe you should also.
 
Were a good portion of the Nazi's sadistic bastards? Unquestionably.. But you have shown me a circa 1945 propaganda film created to foment hatred towards the Germans. And it was successful. It has been successful for many decades. But it doesn't prove anything. Wait, it proves the Nazi's had sadists like every other army. The mentally ill would have been given injections to kill them. And, the nazi's did that. But, the first film mentions gas chambers and there were no gas chambers in the Reich or the western European territories. Even the traditionalist holocaust scholars admit that now.
You also say you never read any thing about Hoess being tortured. He was tortured by a British sergeant by the mane of Bernard Clarke. In his history Legions of death, author Rupert Butler at the beginning of the book expresses his gratitude to certain institutions and amoung others, to two persons, one of who was Bernard Clarke. The author quotes Clarke. He says Clarke shows no remorse. On the contrary, he exhibits a certain pride in having tortured a Nazi. Rupert Butler also finds nothing to criticize in that. Neither of them seemed to understand the importance of their revelation. They say that Hoess was arrested on 11 march 1946, and it took three days of torture to obtain a coherent statement. Of course it is nothing more than the lunatic confession, signed by their quivering victim.
The allies needed confessions simply because they had no real evidence for their monstrous and sometimes idiotic claims. They had no autopsies which showed prisoners were gassed. They had no documents or even any credible theory as to how crimes of such magnitude could have been committed. And, getting confessions was easy. You asked me to do more research, maybe you should also.

1st lets set the record the straight. When the US Army liberated the camps and prisons they were mortified. Never had they ever encountered anything like it in their battlefield experiences. The Allied generals were so upset that they had the horrors documented as seen in the series “Original Nazi Concentration Camp Video Uncensored”. One of the key reasons this was done was to prevent anyone from successfully denying the magnitude and criminality of the Nazi crimes. These were not Allied propaganda films as you claim there was no need for that, the Nazi provided enough material without the need for any propaganda. Nor did the Allied ever participate in crimes of this nature; we’ve gone though that already.

Also sadism was not a policy or behavior encouraged by the US Army where as for member of the SS and Gestapo it was forced upon the individual to behave in such a manner. SS Guards have testified to being themselves threatened if they did not use sufficient force upon the camp inmates. So no it was not like just as in any army.


Only a fringe group of revisionist believes the Hoess was tortured, basically the same revisionist who deny the holocaust and other major Nazi crimes such as the killing of > 12 million Soviet civilians. By the way they used smaller gas chamber and crematoriums in the western concentration camps. Watch all 4 parts of the series gas chamber are physically shown. BTW the 4 part series only shows a small fraction of the more than 800 concentration camps, ghetto’s, death camps, and prisons where 12 million people were murdered.
 
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1st lets set the record the straight. When the US Army liberated the camps and prisons they were mortified. Never had they ever encountered anything like it in their battlefield experiences. The Allied generals were so upset that they had the horrors documented as seen in the series “Original Nazi Concentration Camp Video Uncensored”. One of the key reasons this was done was to prevent anyone from successfully denying the magnitude and criminality of the Nazi crimes. These were not Allied propaganda films as you claim there was no need for that, the Nazi provided enough material without the need for any propaganda. Nor did the Allied ever participate in crimes of this nature; we’ve gone though that already.

Also sadism was not a policy or behavior encouraged by the US Army where as for member of the SS and Gestapo it was forced upon the individual to behave in such a manner. SS Guards have testified to being themselves threatened if they did not use sufficient force upon the camp inmates. So no it was not like just as in any army.


Only a fringe group of revisionist believes the Hoess was tortured, basically the same revisionist who deny the holocaust and other major Nazi crimes such as the killing of > 12 million Soviet civilians. By the way they used smaller gas chamber and crematoriums in the western concentration camps. Watch all 4 parts of the series gas chamber are physically shown. BTW the 4 part series only shows a small fraction of the more than 800 concentration camps, ghetto’s, death camps, and prisons where 12 million people were murdered.

Well, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on many things. But, you should truly do more research on the gas chambers, because even the traditionalists say the did not exist in the German camps. Also SGT Bernard Clarke admitted to beating and torturing Hoess. By the way you say the allies never participated in crimes of this nature. I don't want to be rude man, but what are you, 12 years old. Look up Eisenhower's Rhine Meadow Camps which should be called Eisenhower's Rhine Meadow Death Camps.
Here is the opinion of a truthful American judge.
Charles F. Wennerstrum was an American lawyer from Illinois who served as a judge at some of the 12 subsequent Nuremberg trials. After 8 months at Nuremberg Wennerstrum gave an interview to Hal Foust, a journalist for the Chicago Daily Tribune, who was covering the trials. Wennerstrum expressed his disgust about how the trials had been conducted. He stated the victors of WW2 had used the main Nuremberg trial to whitewash their war crimes and pin the sole blame for the war in the hands of Germany. He also states much of the staff at the trials had only recently become American citizens. And they were imbedded in Europe's hatreds and prejudices. Also, the defence was only given documents deemed necessary to the case by the prosecution. In one case the judge Wennerstrum himself deemed the defence will be allowed to view the entire documents. When he did this, the prosecution complained bitterly. They wanted the defence to only be shown excerps which they deemed necessary. In subsequent weeks the U.S. Military intercepted Wennerstrum's articles and complaints he sent back to the States. He was picked up and interrogated after sending a tele-ticker of his expose of the corruption at the trials. Despite the military's criticism of the judge, he stood by his views and comments his entire life.
You like to denigrate what you call a small clique of revisionists. Maybe you should read some of their works. You may learn something.
 
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