re-accessing WW2

I am not anywhere near agreeing with that, Hitler was a power mad monster and no matter how much you look for his good points and I have no doubt he had some, the fact that he incarcerated and murdered 14 million people for racial, religious, medical or ideological reasons make him a power mad monster.

Was Stalin as bad, there is no doubt he was and I am not really sure Churchill or Tojo were all that far behind either but being almost as bad as Hitler does not mitigate Hitlers actions or legacy in any way.


A power mad monster?? Possibly. But please explain the 14 million figure.
 
A power mad monster?? Possibly. But please explain the 14 million figure.

Soviet deaths resulting directly from the German invasion as per Historian Vadim Erlikman. Some have put the Soviet civilian killed - died as a result of the German invasion as much higher.

Vadim Erlikman has detailed Soviet losses totaling 26.5 million war related deaths. Military losses of 10.6 million include 6.0 million killed or missing in action and 3.6 million POW dead, plus 400,000 paramilitary and Partisan losses. Civilian deaths totaled 15.9 million, which included 1.5 million from military actions; 7.1 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 1.8 million deported to Germany for forced labor ; and 5.5 million famine and disease deaths. Additional famine deaths, which totaled 1 million
during 1946–47, are not included here. Soviet repressions is not included. .

Belorus lost a quarter of its pre-war population, including practically all its intellectual elite. Following bloody encirclement battles, all of the present-day Belarus territory was occupied by the Germans by the end of August 1941. The Nazis imposed a brutal regime, deporting some 380,000 young people for slave labour, and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians more. More than 600 villages like Khatyn were burned with their entire population. More than 209 cities and towns (out of 270 total) and 9,000 villages were destroyed. Himmler pronounced a plan according to which 3/4 of Belarusian population was designated for "eradication" and 1/4 of racially cleaner population (blue eyes, light hair) would be allowed to serve Germans as slaves.
Some recent reports raise the number of Belarusians who perished in War to "3 million 650 thousand people, unlike the former 2.2 million. That is to say not every fourth inhabitant but almost 40% of the pre-war Belarusian population perished (considering the present-day borders of Belarus)."
 
Please explain the 7.1 million victims of Nazi genocide. And please give me some proof that Himmler planned to eradicate 3/4 of the Belarus population. And I hope you realize Khatyn was an NKVD massacre of Polish officers.
 
Please explain the 7.1 million victims of Nazi genocide. And please give me some proof that Himmler planned to eradicate 3/4 of the Belarus population. And I hope you realize Khatyn was an NKVD massacre of Polish officers.

Historian Vadim Erlikman states that 7.1 million Soviets were either shot, burned alive when their village – town was but to the torch or sent to death camps in Poland. Some of these were Jews, more were Slavs. His estimates are conservative.

I’m not about to do an exhaustive research project on Himmler’s murderous plans. It’s enough to say that upon a German victory he planned to immediately eliminate (30 to 50) million Slavs, source “The Blood on the Snow”, amongst others.
Himmler quote: It makes no difference to the Russians. Only the masses count, and they must be trampled and butchered, slaughtered. To use a very gruesome example, it is like a pig which has been stuck and has to slowly bleed to death.

The village of Khatyn was wiped off the map in 1943 by the SS. All inhabitants were but to the torch as was the village itself. This was done because one German was killed several miles outside the village.
http://khatyn.by/en/tragedy/
http://www.belarus.by/en/travel/belarus-life/khatyn
 
Historian Vadim Erlikman states that 7.1 million Soviets were either shot, burned alive when their village – town was but to the torch or sent to death camps in Poland. Some of these were Jews, more were Slavs. His estimates are conservative.

I’m not about to do an exhaustive research project on Himmler’s murderous plans. It’s enough to say that upon a German victory he planned to immediately eliminate (30 to 50) million Slavs, source “The Blood on the Snow”, amongst others.
Himmler quote: It makes no difference to the Russians. Only the masses count, and they must be trampled and butchered, slaughtered. To use a very gruesome example, it is like a pig which has been stuck and has to slowly bleed to death.

The village of Khatyn was wiped off the map in 1943 by the SS. All inhabitants were but to the torch as was the village itself. This was done because one German was killed several miles outside the village.
http://khatyn.by/en/tragedy/
http://www.belarus.by/en/travel/belarus-life/khatyn

You just can't say something is true just because you believe it. Where is the evidence, other than somebody's tale about it. The only thing I know about Khatyn is the soviet NKVD massacre of Polish officers in Khatyn forest. Even the Russians in the Gorbachev government admitted this. What so called fact are you writing about. Please enlighten me.
 
A power mad monster?? Possibly. But please explain the 14 million figure.

11 to 14 million is the estimated number that died in or during the process of being shipped to concentration camps, if you were an ardent Hitlerophile you could argue he had no say in those that were killed in military operations or in actions carriec out by occupying forces but you can not argue he was not complicit in ghe concentration camps and euthanasia experiments Germany enacted during the 12 year existence of the third Reich .
 
11 to 14 million is the estimated number that died in or during the process of being shipped to concentration camps, if you were an ardent Hitlerophile you could argue he had no say in those that were killed in military operations or in actions carriec out by occupying forces but you can not argue he was not complicit in ghe concentration camps and euthanasia experiments Germany enacted during the 12 year existence of the third Reich .

In addition to the ~ 12+ million murdered in concentration and death camps another (12 to 15+) million were murdered in the field (not as a result of military operations). By the burning of villages - towns with the inhabitants included, mass shooting, engineered starvation, etc.. The previous figures I provided were for the USSR only. Greater than 99.5 % of the murders committed by the 3rd Reich were committed until after the Occupation of Poland. Of the murders committed by the 3rd Reich greater than 98 % were committed after the invasion of the USSR. The death squads Einsatzgruppen didn't go into action until the summer of 41. The Death camps didn't start operating until 1942.
 
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You just can't say something is true just because you believe it. Where is the evidence, other than somebody's tale about it. The only thing I know about Khatyn is the soviet NKVD massacre of Polish officers in Khatyn forest. Even the Russians in the Gorbachev government admitted this. What so called fact are you writing about. Please enlighten me.

Read the links,
Read: Blood upon the Snow
Read: Bloodlands

You are talking about an entirely separate event. If you choose to close your own eyes than I can do nothing. I have provided data via links, books and historians. Case closed I can do no more.
 
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11 to 14 million is the estimated number that died in or during the process of being shipped to concentration camps, if you were an ardent Hitlerophile you could argue he had no say in those that were killed in military operations or in actions carriec out by occupying forces but you can not argue he was not complicit in ghe concentration camps and euthanasia experiments Germany enacted during the 12 year existence of the third Reich .

No one is debating that civilians weren't murdered en mass. A good example of Jews being sent for re-settlement in Riga were machine gunned in trenches. That was close to 5000 in one day. But the concentration camps are a different matter. The international red cross who had access to all the camps throughout the war have a different number than the preposterous one bandied about today by the holocaust traditionalists. The concentration camps were basically industrial areas worked by slave labour. And the workers weren't that badly treated until the last half of 44 and the rest of 45 when the transportation infrastructure was bombed out of existence. Most camp inmates died of typhus and starvation. The red cross were at these camps constantly. Their list includes the deaths as follows. Dachau, 17,842 Auchwitz, 52,389 Bergen-Belsen 6,507 Buchenwald 20,301 Flosenburg 18,259 Mauthausen 77,727 Maidanek 6,920 Witteltau 7,187 Sachsenausen 4,785 Jatzieller 3,944 Abtellung 1 41,748. Anyway, you get the picture. The total number of deaths recorded by the red cross was 271,301 from all causes. They also reported most deaths were from typhus and starvation in the last year of the war. 271,301 is a lot less than 6000,000 and they weren't all Jews. What these people went through was a crime but the preposterous exaggerations which have unfolded from the mid-sixties onward should be taken for something else and it isn't the truth.
 
No one is debating that civilians weren't murdered en mass. A good example of Jews being sent for re-settlement in Riga were machine gunned in trenches. That was close to 5000 in one day. But the concentration camps are a different matter. The international red cross who had access to all the camps throughout the war have a different number than the preposterous one bandied about today by the holocaust traditionalists. The concentration camps were basically industrial areas worked by slave labour. And the workers weren't that badly treated until the last half of 44 and the rest of 45 when the transportation infrastructure was bombed out of existence. Most camp inmates died of typhus and starvation. The red cross were at these camps constantly. Their list includes the deaths as follows. Dachau, 17,842 Auchwitz, 52,389 Bergen-Belsen 6,507 Buchenwald 20,301 Flosenburg 18,259 Mauthausen 77,727 Maidanek 6,920 Witteltau 7,187 Sachsenausen 4,785 Jatzieller 3,944 Abtellung 1 41,748. Anyway, you get the picture. The total number of deaths recorded by the red cross was 271,301 from all causes. They also reported most deaths were from typhus and starvation in the last year of the war. 271,301 is a lot less than 6000,000 and they weren't all Jews. What these people went through was a crime but the preposterous exaggerations which have unfolded from the mid-sixties onward should be taken for something else and it isn't the truth.

No, the ICRC did not have access to all the camps during the entire war. They were allowed into Theresienstadt and Dachau in the end of 1944 and 1945. There was an evacuation of inmates from KZ in the early 1945 when Himmler wanted to negotiate with the allies, the evacuation is called the white buses.
 
Sorry but I had to post after that last revisionist post. You are citing Neo - Nazi revisionist lies. Eisenhower said they were going to someday deny these crimes had happened and that is why he had the Allies make the films upon the liberation of Belsen, Dachau, Mauthausen and other concentration and slave labor camps in the west. Consider that Germany had 850 ghettos, concentration camps, forced-labor camps and extermination camps. The actual death camps were located in the east far away from the west's prying eyes. Amongst them were Auschwitz-Birkenau where 1.1 million were killed, Belzec where 600,000 were killed and Treblinka where 800,000 were killed. These numbers were not made up in the 60's but were readily available for the Nuremburg trials in 46. Allied reps were invited to view the sites by the Soviets. The preposterous thing is to deny the perhaps the greatest crimes in history having occurred and those were the crimes of the 3rd Reich. The only newer thing to come to light in the 80's after the fall of the iron curtain was the full extent of the crimes committed against the Soviet union was reveled. Gorbachev cited Soviet losses at > 29 million dead and killed. I mean I could go on like the > 500.000 Greeks how staved to death because the Germans appropriated their food stocks. The 6 million Poles who dies 3 million Jews, 3 million Slavs of these > 90 % were civilians and were murdered. The 1 million Yugoslavs who died many in massive reprisal shooting.
 
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No, the ICRC did not have access to all the camps during the entire war. They were allowed into Theresienstadt and Dachau in the end of 1944 and 1945. There was an evacuation of inmates from KZ in the early 1945 when Himmler wanted to negotiate with the allies, the evacuation is called the white buses.

Theresiestadt where about 40,000 Jews deported from various countries was actually a privileged ghetto and about 466 Danish Jews were sent back to Denmark in early 1945. So much for the destruction of European Jews. But more importantly there was never a mention of gas chambers, simply because these camps never had homicidal gas chambers. The only gas chambers in these camps were small ones used to destroy lice on clothing and bedding. That is what the infamous zyklon B was used for. It take approximately one and one half hours to burn body in a crematorium. The camps had between 4 and 16 ovens. Between 24,000 and 72,000 bodies could be burned a year going full out or at maximum usage. And, this would be impossible without metal fracturing and the ridiculous stories of putting two and three and even four bodies on top of each other wouldn't have helped, but hinder the process. There was no bone crushing machinery found or the massive amounts of coking fuel which would have been required. Weekly aerial photos by American and British aircraft flown over these camps shows no huge amounts of coke. If you truly believe these are revisionist lies do the Math for yourselves.
 
Theresiestadt where about 40,000 Jews deported from various countries was actually a privileged ghetto and about 466 Danish Jews were sent back to Denmark in early 1945. So much for the destruction of European Jews. But more importantly there was never a mention of gas chambers, simply because these camps never had homicidal gas chambers. The only gas chambers in these camps were small ones used to destroy lice on clothing and bedding. That is what the infamous zyklon B was used for. It take approximately one and one half hours to burn body in a crematorium. The camps had between 4 and 16 ovens. Between 24,000 and 72,000 bodies could be burned a year going full out or at maximum usage. And, this would be impossible without metal fracturing and the ridiculous stories of putting two and three and even four bodies on top of each other wouldn't have helped, but hinder the process. There was no bone crushing machinery found or the massive amounts of coking fuel which would have been required. Weekly aerial photos by American and British aircraft flown over these camps shows no huge amounts of coke. If you truly believe these are revisionist lies do the Math for yourselves.

By Professor John Zimmerman concerning body disposal

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/
 
Theresiestadt where about 40,000 Jews deported from various countries was actually a privileged ghetto and about 466 Danish Jews were sent back to Denmark in early 1945. So much for the destruction of European Jews. But more importantly there was never a mention of gas chambers, simply because these camps never had homicidal gas chambers. The only gas chambers in these camps were small ones used to destroy lice on clothing and bedding. That is what the infamous zyklon B was used for. It take approximately one and one half hours to burn body in a crematorium. The camps had between 4 and 16 ovens. Between 24,000 and 72,000 bodies could be burned a year going full out or at maximum usage. And, this would be impossible without metal fracturing and the ridiculous stories of putting two and three and even four bodies on top of each other wouldn't have helped, but hinder the process. There was no bone crushing machinery found or the massive amounts of coking fuel which would have been required. Weekly aerial photos by American and British aircraft flown over these camps shows no huge amounts of coke. If you truly believe these are revisionist lies do the Math for yourselves.

Science breeds knowledge, opinions breed ignorance and apparently stupidity. So you admit, the red cross never visit the other camps now. Well, soon you will admit there was a genocide committed by the Nazis, even people who worked in these camps admit it because they don't like the deniers. Read the primary sources and you will figure it out.
 
Science breeds knowledge, opinions breed ignorance and apparently stupidity. So you admit, the red cross never visit the other camps now. Well, soon you will admit there was a genocide committed by the Nazis, even people who worked in these camps admit it because they don't like the deniers. Read the primary sources and you will figure it out.

What other camps are you referring to. The red cross visited all the camps. The term holocaust denier is incredibly stupid. All it seems to mean is if you do not buy into the traditional Shoah story, you are called a denier. No one is saying the Jews were not singled out because they were. Horrible massacres went on in the Eastern territories. But, the homicidal gas chamber stories aren't even exaggerations, they are just untrue. What they say happened is logistically impossible.
 
What other camps are you referring to. The red cross visited all the camps. The term holocaust denier is incredibly stupid. All it seems to mean is if you do not buy into the traditional Shoah story, you are called a denier. No one is saying the Jews were not singled out because they were. Horrible massacres went on in the Eastern territories. But, the homicidal gas chamber stories aren't even exaggerations, they are just untrue. What they say happened is logistically impossible.


No, the Red cross only went to the T and D and that was during the last months of the war. (primary sources, aka German sources) The German red cross denied access.

There are several sources, German sources describing the use of gas chambers, they were stupid enough to document everything. Do your homework and do it scientifically if you can
 
No, the Red cross only went to the T and D and that was during the last months of the war. (primary sources, aka German sources) The German red cross denied access.

There are several sources, German sources describing the use of gas chambers, they were stupid enough to document everything. Do your homework and do it scientifically if you can

Sorry, but there is not one authentic document which mentions homicidal gas chambers at these camps. There were de-fumigation chambers for clothing and bedding. Please show me these sources. And the Red Cross went to Auschwitz. Auschwitz had a swimming pool. a hospital, a maternity ward and a soccer field. Why would a death camp have these. Then again why would they even have camps if they were intent on killing everyone. Truly, a bullet in the nape of the neck or the back of the head is much cheaper. The whole gas chamber story is just that, a story.
 
Sorry, but there is not one authentic document which mentions homicidal gas chambers at these camps. There were de-fumigation chambers for clothing and bedding. Please show me these sources. And the Red Cross went to Auschwitz. Auschwitz had a swimming pool. a hospital, a maternity ward and a soccer field. Why would a death camp have these. Then again why would they even have camps if they were intent on killing everyone. Truly, a bullet in the nape of the neck or the back of the head is much cheaper. The whole gas chamber story is just that, a story.

I have no idea where you are deriving such ridicules nonsense, what are your sources and historians? Anyways the prisoners arrived by rail and were immediately separated into one of 2 groups. One group would be gassed almost immediately (Note at Auschwitz-Birkenau up to 7000 could be gassed to death daily.) Those selected to die were undressed in the undressing room and then pushed into the gas chambers. It took about 20 minutes for all the people to death. The corpses were carried to the five ovens by an electrically operated lift. Before cremation gold teeth and any other valuables, such as rings, were removed from the corpses. The gas chambers and ovens were on the same level, but the ovens were poorly built and the usage was so great that they repeatedly malfunctioned and had to be abandoned. The corpses were finally burned outside, in the open. The other group was used as slave laborers. The slave labor force in the camp approached 100,000 and was subject to a horrifying death rate by starvation, overworking and beating. The camps commandant Rudolph Höss testified to this at Nuremburg.
 
I have no idea where you are deriving such ridicules nonsense, what are your sources and historians? Anyways the prisoners arrived by rail and were immediately separated into one of 2 groups. One group would be gassed almost immediately (Note at Auschwitz-Birkenau up to 7000 could be gassed to death daily.) Those selected to die were undressed in the undressing room and then pushed into the gas chambers. It took about 20 minutes for all the people to death. The corpses were carried to the five ovens by an electrically operated lift. Before cremation gold teeth and any other valuables, such as rings, were removed from the corpses. The gas chambers and ovens were on the same level, but the ovens were poorly built and the usage was so great that they repeatedly malfunctioned and had to be abandoned. The corpses were finally burned outside, in the open. The other group was used as slave laborers. The slave labor force in the camp approached 100,000 and was subject to a horrifying death rate by starvation, overworking and beating. The camps commandant Rudolph Höss testified to this at Nuremburg.

You have watched too many holocaust movies. I'm sure Hollywood will have another one in a week or two. Rudolph Hoess was tortured. He was whipped and had his testicles crushed. And if that wasn't enough, they threatened to harm his family if he didn't testify the way they wanted him to. Most SS men and commandants were tortured and blackmailed. And, that is from certain allied members of the war crimes commission who were sickened by the barbarity of fellow soldiers. The war crimes commission after the war was a complete fraud. It was pursued with vindictiveness and vengeance and revenge. It was no better than a soviet show trial. Everybody knew the prisoners were going to be found guilty. The only thing they had to figure out was the length of the rope for the hangings. And if you want to believe the preposterous stories of the so-called eye witnesses to the so-called holocaust you obviously are not using any critical thinking. Here is something to think about. Why is the second world war and the Nazi policy towards the Jews at the time, the only history that cannot be debated or scrutinized without fear of imprisonment fines or both. What are certain organizations trying to hide. The truth doesn't need the protection of laws. But, I'm afraid lies do.
 
You have watched too many holocaust movies. I'm sure Hollywood will have another one in a week or two. Rudolph Hoess was tortured. He was whipped and had his testicles crushed. And if that wasn't enough, they threatened to harm his family if he didn't testify the way they wanted him to. Most SS men and commandants were tortured and blackmailed. And, that is from certain allied members of the war crimes commission who were sickened by the barbarity of fellow soldiers. The war crimes commission after the war was a complete fraud. It was pursued with vindictiveness and vengeance and revenge. It was no better than a soviet show trial. Everybody knew the prisoners were going to be found guilty. The only thing they had to figure out was the length of the rope for the hangings. And if you want to believe the preposterous stories of the so-called eye witnesses to the so-called holocaust you obviously are not using any critical thinking. Here is something to think about. Why is the second world war and the Nazi policy towards the Jews at the time, the only history that cannot be debated or scrutinized without fear of imprisonment fines or both. What are certain organizations trying to hide. The truth doesn't need the protection of laws. But, I'm afraid lies do.

Good Grief, don't tell me we've got another lljadw.:cens::shoothea:
 
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