Question on Tokarev rounds




 
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January 24th, 2005  
bushpig1998
 
 

Topic: Question on Tokarev rounds


Hi all...

I've been pondering - especially after reading the "What would you arm your army with" thread...

It would seem that the russians hit the nail right on the head with this round, but it raised some questions for me. Of course GPMG's will have to remain 7.62 NATO, but what's stopping a country from adopting this round as the round for their general infantry weapons and sidearms - along with police and vehicle crews...in the form of sidearms and SMG's...

1 Squad would look like this...

2 GPMG's
2 Scoped 7.62 NATO semi auto's
6 7.62 Tok assault rifles

My reasoning?
M4 with 16" barrel has very little ballistic value over 150 meters - and the 7.62 tok is more or less the same. It doesn't travel as fast as the 5.56, but it has a good range to it for such a small cartridge. The advantage? One round for all infantry AR's and sidearms. Smaller rounds - can carry more- same BARRELS...the most important. For a boot strapping nation like South Africa, it could translate to quite a bit of savings if only one size barrel had to be produced for the general infantry....where it lacks range (over 300 meters where very little combat happens) the scoped 7.62 nato rifles and GPMG's take over.

your thoughs?
January 25th, 2005  
EOD
 
This worked in WWII when Russians had 70 round drums.
For it's time it was ok do so but even the Russians themselfes left that idea after having excessive experience - and that 60 years ago.
I think nowadays where personal protection gear is used by every soldier it is highly questionable to use this round.
I understand that South Africa may not face the problem of personal protection gear but I personally would stick then to someting more powerfull.

It is worth to mention that Russia developed in recent years a wide range of sub machineguns for the 7.62 Tokarev round because of it's power and even the new Russian service pistol "PYa" (Browning system) has the opportunity to exchange the barrels from 9x19 Para (shall be the standard as I heard but no confirmation) to 9x18 Makarov to 7.62x25 Tokarev. The latter two are kept as an option because there is a tremendous stock of these cartidges in Russia what assures cheap training and the 7.62 Tok is certainly a good asset to the gun.
January 25th, 2005  
bushpig1998
 
 
So it would make perfect sense to keep the Tokarev round as a sub machinegun and pistol round, but go to 7.62 NATO for battle rifle...still uses the same barrels - just different lengths and thus save on manufacturing costs...interesting. I've always had high regard for the high powered Tokarev rounds from easter bloc countries. I tihnk CZ manufactures some very high velocity ammo that easily pierces level II vests.
This is a seriously powerful pistul and SMG round - would be great for vehicle crews in SMG form, since it has more range and power than a 9mm, and a smaller diameter, so more ammo can be hauled.
I'm fascinated by the manufacturing process that goes into military weapons - especially small arms.
I was thinking of a SMG along the same lines as the Sten or maybe the greasegun - stamped and super cheap to manufacture. Straight blowback from a closed bolt. It could be stamped steel or composites. I would go with composites to reduce cost and weight.
I considered going with the 5.45 round currently in use in some russian weapons, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work as a handgun round - they key here is consistency...Consistency is next to Godliness. If you can set up a manufacturing process for 4 weapons using the same barrel stock and techniques, wouldn't it be cheaper and faster?
A 7.62 Handgun
A 7.62 SMG
A 7.62 Assault Rifle
A 7.62 Sniper system
A 7.62 Squad MG
And a 7.62 GPMG
All operate on a blowback design - probably not as weird as the HKG3, but you get the idea.

Maybe use 7.62x39 for the AR and Squad MG - less recoil and plenty ammo lying around.
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January 26th, 2005  
EOD
 
Keep in mind thatyou will have different barrel twist on most weapons and then the idea of campatibility and saving money is far away.

Actually not the Czechs are doing such a powerfull round. (if so please tell me which one). I know they necked down a 7.62 Tokarev to 5.6mm and it was a trial for a sub machine gun called VOB, think it was in the last 5-10 years.
The Russiand made already in WWII and API round for the 7.62 Tokarev (then actually for the PPSh-41 other SMGs) and when it comes to vests we have to remember the THV cartridges made in South Africa.
THV = Tres Haute Vitesse - a French development that is basically a very light brass projectile at very high speed which is know as "cop killer" in public (damn TV).
The South Africans used Chinese copper plated steel cases and loaded them with 3 different projectile designs (minor adjustments).
RSA made them also in 5.56x45, 7.62x39, 7.62x51.
In RSA it was called the "MONAD" since they did not use the French name.

Here an image of the 5.56x45:
http://img189.exs.cx/img189/6954/556x45monad6id.jpg
January 26th, 2005  
bushpig1998
 
 
I vaguely remember these cartridges from service days in RSA. I'm not sure whether the Chechs make the super high velocity Tokarev rounds or some other country. I'll have to do some reading.
I realize the rifling would be different for each of the weapons, but the main savings would be in the barrel stock - no need to buy different diameters - can buy one and rifle it differently - granted the quality (accuracy) will be more or less like an AK's, but then again - the idea is cheap, right? Another option would be to stick to the tried and tested 5.56 NATO round and develop some kind of pistol/SMG cartridge for it - maybe a necked down .38 special (although that would be a very steep neck angle).
Another reason I thought of the Tokarev roun is because it is compact enough to fit in a pistol type role, for instance, should a new AR be ddeveloped, it can be kept VERY simple by simply feeding the mag through the pistol grip - more or less like the kechtec carbine conversions for some glock and 1911's. Oh well, just daydreaming....keeps my mind off work!