Problems in Syria

[Yossarian]

Now this I have to agree with.

We should have an equal care of human rights no matter the impact it has on countries we support, etc.

Just because we should, doesn't mean we will, interests and policy interfere with moral decisions on a regular basis.

Again though, if people want to be hateful, judgmental, and religious-crazed we (Americans) cannot step in all of the time. It makes me sick that people do not have more care for life, but we are not Earth's saviors. We have some pretty decent issues ourselves within our goverment, our homeless, that need to be dealt with before we jump into every other country and tell them they are doing things wrong.

Go to your grocery store. Look around, look as you gas gauge. No here's an attachment to the reality of the ways we live our lives. We need things, you and I, and any other typical American, over the course of the past 50 some odd years, we have experienced an unprecedented increase in the quality of our lives. Even today the average American consumes much much more than the other 90% of the rest of the Earth's populace.

What we deem necessities are usually luxuries to many other people's of the world.

What I am stabbing at dearest is underneath a large portion of our foreign policy during the 20th century right up to today, was spurred in some way or fashion at deterring outside forces from threatening or interfering with our flow of "stuff". And I mean cheap "stuff". Materials, minerals, manufactured goods, OIL AND NATURAL GAS.

Why does America care so much for Syria? Is it because it's wrong? Well, to a degree. You see we don't have a history of really ever doing what the Romans did when they needed stuff. We don't invade and simpley take things , never really had.

Wind back to 1949, we needed to enforce Mr. Truman's conatainment policy, especially in the Middle East. This was accomplished by besting the Soviets at every turn to win over favor with governments throughout this region. The more pro American leaders and body's on our side, the easier it was to gain access to cheap oil.

We did this in South America and East Asia with choke points and trade materials. Times changed and we had secured an unofficial flow of materials and out flow of money that strangled the finacially isolated USSR to death. Our globalisation created during the 20th century and our enormous consumption of goods and materials has put us on a precarious spot.

We now have to honor the complex web of alliances and trade agreements made in the past century. As well as maintain our global position as mediatary of the world, moderator of economic growth. Also we do this as a means of providing security of us and our interest.

By interest I mean access to the same things that fill our shopping malls and grocery stores with "stuff".

This is all we know, so we will do what we always have done my dear.

Try to push outside influence out of Syria ( Like Mr. Putin's missile systems) and implant pro American Sentiments.

The goal would be to have a pro American body in Syria after the revolution to help in any future security problems in the future there, as well as not threaten international trade in the region.

Step one of doing this is to rouse up the corporate media to make it seem like a massive blood bath, then abuse people's emotions to justify a military action there.

As we always do.

Change some terms like (overthrowing ) to maybe (popular movement). Or something like that, and the average Joe and Jan won't think twice while they wait for Big Brother to come on.

It's all a puzzle my dear, you just have to look at the picture on the box and put it all together.

 

[pixiedustboo]

Just because we should, doesn't mean we will, interests and policy interfere with moral decisions on a regular basis.

Go to your grocery store. Look around, look as you gas gauge. No here's an attachment to the reality of the ways we live our lives. We need things, you and I, and any other typical American, over the course of the past 50 some odd years, we have experienced an unprecedented increase in the quality of our lives. Even today the average American consumes much much more than the other 90% of the rest of the Earth's populace.

What we deem necessities are usually luxuries to many other people's of the world.

What I am stabbing at dearest is underneath a large portion of our foreign policy during the 20th century right up to today, was spurred in some way or fashion at deterring outside forces from threatening or interfering with our flow of "stuff". And I mean cheap "stuff". Materials, minerals, manufactured goods, OIL AND NATURAL GAS.

Why does America care so much for Syria? Is it because it's wrong? Well, to a degree. You see we don't have a history of really ever doing what the Romans did when they needed stuff. We don't invade and simpley take things , never really had.

Wind back to 1949, we needed to enforce Mr. Truman's conatainment policy, especially in the Middle East. This was accomplished by besting the Soviets at every turn to win over favor with governments throughout this region. The more pro American leaders and body's on our side, the easier it was to gain access to cheap oil.

We did this in South America and East Asia with choke points and trade materials. Times changed and we had secured an unofficial flow of materials and out flow of money that strangled the finacially isolated USSR to death. Our globalisation created during the 20th century and our enormous consumption of goods and materials has put us on a precarious spot.

We now have to honor the complex web of alliances and trade agreements made in the past century. As well as maintain our global position as mediatary of the world, moderator of economic growth. Also we do this as a means of providing security of us and our interest.

By interest I mean access to the same things that fill our shopping malls and grocery stores with "stuff".

This is all we know, so we will do what we always have done my dear.

Try to push outside influence out of Syria ( Like Mr. Putin's missile systems) and implant pro American Sentiments.

The goal would be to have a pro American body in Syria after the revolution to help in any future security problems in the future there, as well as not threaten international trade in the region.

Step one of doing this is to rouse up the corporate media to make it seem like a massive blood bath, then abuse people's emotions to justify a military action there.

As we always do.

Change some terms like (overthrowing ) to maybe (popular movement). Or something like that, and the average Joe and Jan won't think twice while they wait for Big Brother to come on.

It's all a puzzle my dear, you just have to look at the picture on the box and put it all together.

I am aware of all of this.

The only real thing that matters to me about Syria is that Assad is killing his people. Is that or is that not true? That seems like the only thing I care to take away. I know about the politics, but the politics shouldn't matter when people are losing their lives. (In my, non-government worker opinion). Sadly, yes, you are right, we care about things and politics more than life.

...and yes, our standard of living is different that many other countries, but I do think we have some serious "NEEDS" here. Our government is going down the drain, in a big way, our homeless need help, people that cannot afford their meds need help.

ETA, yes I am probably judging this in a totally American rose-colored-glasses way, but still, it is how I personally feel life should be protected without needing to gain something from it.

 

[Yossarian]

ETA, yes I am probably judging this in a totally American rose-colored-glasses way, but still, it is how I personally feel life should be protected without needing to gain something from it.

Due to pre existing policy in this situation regarding Syria, we need to tread very very carefully. People remember what we have done in the past, and that will weigh on the minds of many.

If we bomb and intervene here this may be fuel for militant groups elsewhere. Or we may bomb Syria into a haven for said groups.

Or may necessitate the deployment of more troops over seas, stressing our already ailing debt situation, and presence elsewhere around the globe.

Or we may divide Syria into a series of unstable districts governed by current rebel leaders.

The chance of a real democracy succeeding is strong here, but it's very very easy for that to be compromised from the start.

Rose coloring sadly usually is short lived in dealing with these types of tragedy.

 

[pixiedustboo]

Due to pre existing policy in this situation regarding Syria, we need to tread very very carefully. People remember what we have done in the past, and that will weigh on the minds of many.

If we bomb and intervene here this may be fuel for militant groups elsewhere. Or we may bomb Syria into a haven for said groups.

Or may necessitate the deployment of more troops over seas, stressing our already ailing debt situation, and presence elsewhere around the globe.

Or we may divide Syria into a series of unstable districts governed by current rebel leaders.

The chance of a real democracy succeeding is strong here, but it's very very easy for that to be compromised from the start.

Rose coloring sadly usually is short lived in dealing with these types of tragedy.

Well said.

As much as I think life should be protected, I don't think it is always our place to step in and save the day' as we like to think we do. We have done so before and the things we have done' still to this day echo in terrible ways.

I really think this is something that the Syrian people have to fight for. If they want Assad out of power, then they will have it. It will take a toll on innocents, all war does. The end should always be thought out, "will we be better off," and if their answer to that is, "yes," then I say they are fighting for a just cause.

 

[Yossarian]

Well said.

As much as I think life should be protected, I don't think it is always our place to step in and save the day' as we like to think we do. We have done so before and the things we have done' still to this day echo in terrible ways.

I really think this is something that the Syrian people have to fight for. If they want Assad out of power, then they will have it. It will take a toll on innocents, all war does. The end should always be thought out, "will we be better off," and if their answer to that is, "yes," then I say they are fighting for a just cause.

The best taste of freedom is the hard won kind.

We can't give them that, in the end it's their struggle.

 

[George]

The reagan Dictrine was to give the needed weopans to the locals so they can win themselves. Probably would work, just a question if Al Quida has beat us to it.

 

[Yossarian]

The reagan Dictrine was to give the needed weopans to the locals so they can win themselves. Probably would work, just a question if Al Quida has beat us to it.

Iran does this , this situation it might work.

It failed miserably in Vietnam, leading to our direct involvement there. It came back to bite us big time in Iraq in 1991, and again in 2001 with Al Qaeda.

It's a tricky move, and not right for every situation. But it appears Russia has already beat us to the table by putting those missiles there...

Mr. Putin is no diplomatic slouch it seems. It's also a bad time for the election hype to be going on, a whole lot of clouding of the issue and not a lot of plans to deal with it at the moment.

 

[MontyB]

Well said.

As much as I think life should be protected, I don't think it is always our place to step in and save the day' as we like to think we do. We have done so before and the things we have done' still to this day echo in terrible ways.

I really think this is something that the Syrian people have to fight for. If they want Assad out of power, then they will have it. It will take a toll on innocents, all war does. The end should always be thought out, "will we be better off," and if their answer to that is, "yes," then I say they are fighting for a just cause.

Quite honestly I think you have missed the point.
There are numerous aspects to look at here:
1) What do the Syrian people actually want?
As has been pointed out the second the bullets started flying it became all Assad's fault and maybe it is but then again it may just be a foreign fueled insurrection as he claims.

2) Assuming they want Assad gone the argument that we should just let them fight it out is going to fail horribly given that as long as Russia, China and Iran can provide weapons and support to Assad while the West sits back and makes speeches will lead to a blood bath.

3) If they want Assad to stay then perhaps we should be butting the hell out.

There also appears to be an argument that if the rebels are not pro-west we should not help them but I am not of the opinion that they need to be pro-west just not anti-west and lets be honest here why would they be pro-west when the USA has meddled in every bodies international affairs for the last 50 years, for the 50 years before that Britain and France did exactly the same and ended up turning the middle east into a war zone so the best that we should be hoping for is a neutral state that can stand on its own two feet and make decisions for itself.

 

[Yossarian]

the best that we should be hoping for is a neutral state that can stand on its own two feet and make decisions for itself.

Absolutely,

Look at what happened in Africa after the European powers pulled out.

We can influence this by either bombs or sending bullets. Either way weapons are not biodegradable so who knows what will happen once if we arm elements there.

Last but not least I our adversaries will be prompted to support and influence Syrian affairs after the revolutions once the see American intentions for the region more clearly.

What I am saying is after the cards are dealt they will put their chips all in first once they see the look on our face.

 

[pixiedustboo]

2) Assuming they want Assad gone the argument that we should just let them fight it out is going to fail horribly given that as long as Russia, China and Iran can provide weapons and support to Assad while the West sits back and makes speeches will lead to a blood bath.

This I can't answer. It isn't my decision and for that I am thankful.

Quite honestly I think you have missed the point.
There are numerous aspects to look at here:
1) What do the Syrian people actually want?
As has been pointed out the second the bullets started flying it became all Assad's fault and maybe it is but then again it may just be a foreign fueled insurrection as he claims.

3) If they want Assad to stay then perhaps we should be butting the hell out.

USA has meddled in every bodies international affairs for the last 50 years, for the 50 years before that Britain and France did exactly the same and ended up turning the middle east into a war zone so the best that we should be hoping for is a neutral state that can stand on its own two feet and make decisions for itself

Agreed. I believe I already made that quite clear in several of my posts.

So what is the point I am missing excatly?

 

[hamidreza]

The Syria main problem is not freedom or democracy, although Assad did many mistakes about that, but Syria main problem is that Assad is the only leader in Arab world who is really against Israel (the agent of Zionist and imperialism in the ME) among region countries and the crisis in Syria is the cost they should pay for it.
Alawite community, Christian community, Druze community, Kurdish community after autonomy and a large part of Sunni people, who are against Israel, support Assad. Also a major part of Sunni community just want to live in peace and it is not important for them the structure of government. Isn’t it strange for you why after two years crisis even one battalion hasn’t been apart from Syria army except that a few traitor generals?
As I told before west and some traitor Arab leaders want to revenge and it is why they support rebels.
The crisis in Syria has external origin. If some countries supported the Kurdish or Alawite opponents in Turkey by weapons and money, we would have the same crisis in Turkey. If the Shies or other opponents were supported by foreign counties in Saudi Arabia or Bahrain or Jordan we would have the same condition there. If even a country that was several times stronger than the US and gave weapon or money to supporters of anti-capitalist movement or other opponents in the US, we would have the same condition there too.
But the funny thing is that there are a lot of Al-Qaeda forces from different Muslim countries in Syria who are supported by west and some region traitor Arab leaders, the group which is the main accused for 9/11 terrorist attack.
I am sure Syrian people and their leaders are conscious and will defeat invaders and traitors.

 

[MontyB]

The Syria main problem is not freedom or democracy, although Assad did many mistakes about that, but Syria main problem is that Assad is the only leader in Arab world who is really against Israel (the agent of Zionist and imperialism in the ME) among region countries and the crisis in Syria is the cost they should pay for it.
Alawite community, Christian community, Druze community, Kurdish community after autonomy and a large part of Sunni people, who are against Israel, support Assad. Also a major part of Sunni community just want to live in peace and it is not important for them the structure of government. Isn’t it strange for you why after two years crisis even one battalion hasn’t been apart from Syria army except that a few traitor generals?

The problem is that neither you nor I know what the Syrian people want you are just as much a recipient of pro-Assad propaganda as I am of anti-Assad propaganda.

The fact is that the only way Assad is going to hold power is by either:
A) Slaughtering thousands of people.
B) Stepping down and letting them choose whether they want him or not.

I am prepared to bet that the answer isn't going to be B, which makes him just another run of the mill middle eastern dictator.

I don't believe for an instant that "Zionism" is behind this as the last thing "Zionists" need is peace breaking out in the middle east as that will focus world attention on their actions which would put Israel in a dire position.

 

[hamidreza]

The problem is that neither you nor I know what the Syrian people want you are just as much a recipient of pro-Assad propaganda as I am of anti-Assad propaganda.

I Receive both pro-Assad and anti–Assad propaganda, but anti–Assad propaganda more. In fact it is not necessary looking for anti –Assad propaganda. They come to you themselves every where of the world you are.

The fact is that the only way Assad is going to hold power is by either:
A) Slaughtering thousands of people.
B) Stepping down and letting them choose whether they want him or not.

I am prepared to bet that the answer isn't going to be B, which makes him just another run of the mill middle eastern dictator.

Both of them are wrong. First many of crimes have been done by rebels not Assad. As well as that Assad, as Syria president, is responsible for national security. It is his duty to fight with the rebels who are against the society rules. The rebels get money and weapons from foreign countries and distribute the peace of society. It is illegal in Syria and also every else you think. In this war probably many innocent people will be killed wrongly but be sure just rebels will be happy of it not Assad or his supporter. If the innocent people weren’t killed in this crisis, the world community wouldn’t pay attention to Syria.

Also Assad has recommended negotiating with his opponents several times. Even his assistant told a few days ago in Moscow that he is ready to resign during the negotiation but not before it as a precondition. So tell me why the opponents haven’t accepted it if they really want peace in Syria?

I don't believe for an instant that "Zionism" is behind this as the last thing "Zionists" need is peace breaking out in the middle east as that will focus world attention on their actions which would put Israel in a dire position.

Be sure if Assad signed a peace accord with Israel, the crisis would disappear less than one week.

 

[VDKMS]

I don't believe one word that Assad says. He had 18 months to fulfill the wishes of "his" people.

Unfortunately the other countries do the same. They are all in for their personal benefits. Fortunately there are the humanitarian organizations but their reach is limited.

In the end I think Assad will fall (or flee) but I doubt if that will be the end of the troubles.

 

[pixiedustboo]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4og4gQl9NU&feature=autoplay&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ&playnext=1"]Amazing Syria Documentary By Frontline - YouTube[/ame]

 

[LeEnfield]

The problem is Muslim fundamentalism, and if this uprising succeds then many other froups will be forced out.

 

[hamidreza]

I see some west people really funny. When they see one of their enemies is doing crimes they say: oh my heart. why they are killing innocent people. why nobody helps them. we should give them weapons to defeat themselves or things like that.
But when we ask them about their soldiers crimes they are silent or they say: It is the world and we are the world police. we kill anybody who is against our freedom(!) we don't let somebody to threaten our interests. For example we attack to Iraq and kill thousands of people because we have recognized they have WMD( in fact they had recognized WMD was the best excuse) or we help dictator regimes in ME because they ensure our interests and it is politics. Because politics is very dirty.

 

[VDKMS]

I see some west people really funny. When they see one of their enemies is doing crimes they say: oh my heart. why they are killing innocent people. why nobody helps them. we should give them weapons to defeat themselves or things like that.
But when we ask them about their soldiers crimes they are silent or they say: It is the world and we are the world police. we kill anybody who is against our freedom(!) we don't let somebody to threaten our interests. For example we attack to Iraq and kill thousands of people because we have recognized they have WMD( in fact they had recognized WMD was the best excuse) or we help dictator regimes in ME because they ensure our interests and it is politics. Because politics is very dirty.

Ever wondered what Saddam would have done when he found out about your nuclear weapons program (true or not)? I think the west, with the invasion of Iraq, saved your country from another bloody war.

 

[o2o2243]

Ever wondered what Saddam would have done when he found out about your nuclear weapons program (true or not)? I think the west, with the invasion of Iraq, saved your country from another bloody war.

Yes and no
The west is not interested in saving other people/countries... it is just used as an excuse... but to be honest, they don't give a f*** about it.

 

[hamidreza]

New W. intelligence: Syrian rebels don’t have the numbers to win



http://www.debka.com/article/22440/New-W-intelligence-Syrian-rebels-don’t-have-the-numbers-to-win