The Problem with "good" Muslims

[Whispering Death]

Short news report followed by commentary

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Some U.S. Muslims worry about chill on free speech

A life sentence given Wednesday to a prominent Muslim scholar in Fairfax, Va., is raising concerns among some American Muslim leaders that their rights to free speech may be curbed.

In April, Ali al-Timimi was convicted of soliciting treason after he encouraged his followers to fight U.S. troops and join the Taliban immediately after the 9-11 attacks. He was also convicted for inducing others to use firearms.

A group of young Muslim men were also convicted of crimes related to the conspiracy. Called the "Virginia jihad network" by authorities, the men, over whom prosecutors said al-Timimi had influence, played paintball games in 2000 and 2001 and were said to be training for holy war.

The life sentence came as a surprise to area Muslims.

"This is like being convicted of murder, even though you haven't killed anyone," said Imam Johari Abdul-Malik, outreach director of Dar Al-Hijrah Islamic Center in Falls Church, Va.

Abdul-Malik said although many Muslims found some of the scholar's statements inappropriate, "we never thought that impropriety on the part of al-Timimi's speech, whether protected by the First Amendment or not, would be matched by such a severe sentence."

At his mosque Wednesday night, Abdul-Malik said, he observed "a numbing effect" among members who were "shocked" at the severity of the sentence.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Gordon Kromberg said Timimi "deserves every day of the time he will serve. ... Timimi hates the United States and calls for its destruction. He is allowed to do that [in the U.S.]. He is not allowed to solicit treason."

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The problem with "good" non-violent muslims, in my opinion, is how they always support their kind, even when it is someone who is actively supporting the killing of American serviemen from WITHIN America! We've heard of numerous fatwas and holy wars against America but even after 9/11 there arn't many in the islamic community who issue fatwas against Bin Laddin instead trying to turn the discussion into racism and how Americans are beating up on muslims. I think most Americans think that most muslims are good but after 4 years of this kind of stuff how much will it take to push them over the edge into full blown hatred of the muslim community?

What do you think about all of this?

 

[chewie_nz]

i think your use of quotation marks on "good" would justify there fear.


have some empathy man! how would you feel if it was your freedom of speech threatened on the basis of your religion

 

[Charge 7]

The problem with "good" non-violent muslims, in my opinion, is how they always support their kind, even when it is someone who is actively supporting the killing of American serviemen from WITHIN America! We've heard of numerous fatwas and holy wars against America but even after 9/11 there arn't many in the islamic community who issue fatwas against Bin Laddin instead trying to turn the discussion into racism and how Americans are beating up on muslims. I think most Americans think that most muslims are good but after 4 years of this kind of stuff how much will it take to push them over the edge into full blown hatred of the muslim community?

What do you think about all of this?

I think that statement is the least intelligent one you've ever made. Sorry, but that's my stand on it. As I have mentioned more than once, one of the closest friends I have on this planet is a Muslim. He has never supported "their kind" in all things and most certainly not in the attacks of terrorism. Many times he has openly stated he deplores them and also stated that it is against Islam. His family feels the same way, and the friends of his I have met in the Muslim community in Boston feel the same as well.

Too many people seem to feel that because average Muslims do not voice loudly their rejection of the Muslim extremists that this means that by default they support them. Let me ask you this, how many mainstream blacks denounced the Black Panthers and other extremist black organizations and people during the violence of the '50s, 60s, and '70s? Not many if any. And why? They didn't wish to call attention to themselves and held to the belief that the nail that sticks out the farthest gets pounded first. When you are already living with a lower standard than those in control you do not ask to be noticed.

 

[Rabs]

The problem is that in a war on terror, your either with us or against us. Even if its non-violent people that preach hate about America from within our borders. Theres at least a 100 diffrent countries they can go to or a nice comfy bed at gitmo.

 

[Charge 7]

The problem is that in a war on terror, your either with us or against us. Even if its non-violent people that preach hate about America from within our borders. Theres at least a 100 diffrent countries they can go to or a nice comfy bed at gitmo.

The world is not so black and white. If you say nothing are you then guilty of not being "with us"? If you disagree with any part of what is happening are you also so guilty? I think not. If you're correct, then you had best start with locking up General Abizaid as he has stated publicly a contradiction of statements by Vice President Cheney.

http://csmonitor.com/2005/0624/dailyUpdate.html

All things, including the war on terror, must be evaluated in the context of the facts at hand and in relation to their meaning. Sweeping judgements serve the dictator, not a free society.

 

[Whispering Death]

My first college roomate was a practicing Suni. He's a good guy we got along very well.

Here's the problem. Not everyone in America is best friends with every muslim so their impressions of the mulsim community is what they hear. More and more recently I've been hearing rumblings about the Islamic community in the "who'se side are they on?" line of questioning. All the average American hears from the Islamic community are things like "why are you imprisoning my iman for life just for calling for the death of Americans." And every time a muslim being pulled out of line for the random security check goes "whoa whoa whoa why do you want to pull ME out of line" what does the average person think, "Shit, that arab is concerned about the security check, should I start running?"

You can't dismiss it as "the least intelligent statement I've ever made" because the reason we invaded Iraq is because we percieved Saddam to be more of a threat than he was, if large segments of the American population percieve that most muslims are on 'their' side and not 'ours' the result isn't going to be pretty.

At the same time, while it is comforting we imprisoned him, it is deeply disturbing that we have Imans in America who are preaching al-Quaida hate-speach from the pulpit and there are those Americans willing to follow, even defend him.

 

[Shadowalker]

I think you have to be quite ignorant/ easily brainwashed by the media to think that the majority of muslims are on "their" side. In everyday life its easy to see that the terrorists are a minority as if they were a majority there would be more terrorist instances. I know in britain the recent london bombs have been condemned by every religious leader including the main muslim leaders.

I just wish we were taking an active stand against the imans praising the terrorists here in britain. i am all for freedom of speech but allowing men who are praising the violence into the country and letting them stay...

 

[gladius]

I think that statement is the least intelligent one you've ever made. Sorry, but that's my stand on it. As I have mentioned more than once, one of the closest friends I have on this planet is a Muslim. He has never supported "their kind" in all things and most certainly not in the attacks of terrorism. Many times he has openly stated he deplores them and also stated that it is against Islam. His family feels the same way, and the friends of his I have met in the Muslim community in Boston feel the same as well.

I don't think this is so unintelligent as you might think.

Let me tell you a story of something that actually happened at my work.

There several Muslims at my work place, they are pretty good guys they get along with most everyone at work, everyone thinks well of them, for the most part. After 9/11 they all condemed the attacks saying they don't support the terrorist and stuff.

I have this good freind there who is Egyptian (but not Muslim). Sometime after 9/11 (about 8 months) one of these Muslims at my work came up to him thinking that he was also Muslim. This Muslim guy started to proceeded to talk to him about 9/11, and told him; THAT IT WAS A GOOD THING THAT 9/11 HAPPENED TO AMERICA. My freind replied that he was not Muslim and basicly told him off. He told me about this, but he wasn't really surprise, him coming from Egypt and all and seeing first hand how non-muslims are treated over there. I that guy was just saying that for the benefit of everyone at work to hear.

Maybe the Muslims you talk to openly deplore terrorism. But how do they really feel behind closed doors when they are talking amongst themsleves? Its probably a different story. Alot of them would probably never do it, but are probably sympathetic to it, although they would never say this to a non-muslim.

They say one thing to us who are non-muslim, with themsleves most of the time its something else. I can give you a perfect example from one of the other post that was place recently.

 

[Italian Guy]

I think that statement is the least intelligent one you've ever made. Sorry, but that's my stand on it. As I have mentioned more than once, one of the closest friends I have on this planet is a Muslim. He has never supported "their kind" in all things and most certainly not in the attacks of terrorism. Many times he has openly stated he deplores them and also stated that it is against Islam. His family feels the same way, and the friends of his I have met in the Muslim community in Boston feel the same as well.

I don't think this is so unintelligent as you might think.

Let me tell you a story of something that actually happened at my work.

There several Muslims at my work place, they are pretty good guys they get along with most everyone at work, everyone thinks well of them, for the most part. After 9/11 they all condemed the attacks saying they don't support the terrorist and stuff.

I have this good freind there who is Egyptian (but not Muslim). Sometime after 9/11 (about 8 months) one of these Muslims at my work came up to him thinking that he was also Muslim. This Muslim guy started to proceeded to talk to him about 9/11, and told him; THAT IT WAS A GOOD THING THAT 9/11 HAPPENED TO AMERICA. My freind replied that he was not Muslim and basicly told him off. He told me about this, but he wasn't really surprise, him coming from Egypt and all and seeing first hand how non-muslims are treated over there. I that guy was just saying that for the benefit of everyone at work to hear.

Maybe the Muslims you talk to openly deplore terrorism. But how do they really feel behind closed doors when they are talking amongst themsleves? Its probably a different story. Alot of them would probably never do it, but are probably sympathetic to it, although they would never say this to a non-muslim.

They say one thing to us who are non-muslim, with themsleves most of the time its something else. I can give you a perfect example from one of the other post that was place recently.

I have share a house with a Muslim integralist, fervent supporter of UBL. It happened from 9/11 to March of the following year. He would bless BL and stuff. He was obsessed with the jews. He and friends cheered on 9/11, made toasts in front of those images on tv.
This is a perfectly integrated and wealthy guy.
He just wouldn't say up with BL outdoors.
Anyways whether a "moderate" muslim population and culture really exist, is IMO THE big question to answer.
Hints leading to answering "Gladio's right" are numerous. My dad probably said a true thing: "Moderate Muslims exist: My concern is that they might make up just about a small fraction of our muslims".
That is, yeah they exist, but what if only 20 % of muslims are moderate?
What would our attitude have to be then?
Let's not forget that a survey conducted by al Jazeera asking its watchers "Do you think it is good and correct to kidnap, threaten and sometimes kill non-muslims for the sake of Islam?" a resounding 80% answered yes. That might not be representative of the whole muslim world, but...
I wish it wasn't so, because it would mean this war is lost from the beginning. We absolutely need their support, outspoken, frank, brave.

 

[Charge 7]

Maybe the Muslims you talk to openly deplore terrorism. But how do they really feel behind closed doors when they are talking amongst themsleves? Its probably a different story. Alot of them would probably never do it, but are probably sympathetic to it, although they would never say this to a non-muslim.

They say one thing to us who are non-muslim, with themsleves most of the time its something else. I can give you a perfect example from one of the other post that was place recently.

I don't have to wonder what a friend who's been there for me when I really needed him thinks when I'm not around. His actions towards me have spoken volumes. You may have all the doubt and mistrust you want. You're the poorer and I'm the richer.

 

[Locke]

the main problem i see here is the "us" and "them" attitude. it is naturally negative and makes for all sorts of problems for people to get along.
the islamic community (like most major religions) is a very tight knit one, and as Charge said, no one really wants to stand out from the group. there is a difference between not supporting the radicals and supporting "us."

too many people know one rotten apple and they seem to be generalising it to the whole population. how many aetheists do you know who are against abortion? christians who are for gun control? i think the media glare on muslims and the islamic religion is far brighter than is necessary and people are not really thinking or acting rationally, there is too much of a "knee jerk reaction"

 

[gladius]

I don't have to wonder what a friend who's been there for me when I really needed him thinks when I'm not around. His actions towards me have spoken volumes. You may have all the doubt and mistrust you want. You're the poorer and I'm the richer.

Your being friends with a Muslim has nothing to do with the overall picture as a whole. Or even what he believes in. They can still treat you nicely and beleive in something totaly opposite of what you believe in.

In fact I'm friends with one of the Muslims at work, I even helped him move from his house when he needed my help just recently.

Them being friends with you, and what they believe is a completely seperate entity.

Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

Muslims have shared beliefs that they will only share with other Muslims. You are trying to equate the whole global scenario with your friend, thats simply not the case here.

You can say what you want about being poorer or richer, ect. I did some studying on Islam and have good sense and ideas of what most of them believe in. Those are simply the facts of the matter and I'm going by those, because it is simply what most of them believe.

My dad probably said a true thing: "Moderate Muslims exist: My concern is that they might make up just about a small fraction of our muslims".
That is, yeah they exist, but what if only 20 % of muslims are moderate?
What would our attitude have to be then?
Let's not forget that a survey conducted by al Jazeera asking its watchers "Do you think it is good and correct to kidnap, threaten and sometimes kill non-muslims for the sake of Islam?" a resounding 80% answered yes. That might not be representative of the whole muslim world, but...
I wish it wasn't so, because it would mean this war is lost from the beginning. We absolutely need their support, outspoken, frank, brave.

I agree here, I do think there are moderate Muslims but they are the minority, 20% is about accurate I think. Most of them (the non-moderates), even alot of the ones living in the West are sympathetic to the terrorist.

Whether this war is already lost, it might be. Our efforts right now I think is buying us time. Thats probably the main reason I support the war in Iraq. I don't think it will work out in the long term, but it will defiantely buy us time, which good enough for now.

As far as having their outspoken and brave support, I would like to see it happen. But the thing is do you see it happening? Sporatic efforts here and there by a not that many people, thats about it. Thats the reason I see this lost more than anything else.

There was supposed to be a rally in Washington where some moderates in the Muslim community where trying to organize close to a million people in a show of strenght to rally against terrorism and Islamic extermism, ...well only around 50 people showed up.

 

[Charge 7]

Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

Speak what you know of. You don't know him so you can't judge. I can tell you this, when I was in very desperate circumstances only one friend dropped everything, selfsacrificed and came to my aid without a moment's hesitation. This was only the most significant time he showed his true colors, time and time again he has shown me what a true friend he really is.

And as I said before, I have spoken to him at length about what his beliefs are. He has been my friend for over 8 years now. I have every reason to trust him. I have far less reason to trust you as your beliefs of mistrust and deceit tell more about you then any shred about him.

 

[Italian Guy]

Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

Speak what you know of. You don't know him so you can't judge. I can tell you this, when I was in very desperate circumstances only one friend dropped everything, selfsacrificed and came to my aid without a moment's hesitation. This was only the most significant time he showed his true colors, time and time again he has shown me what a true friend he really is.

And as I said before, I have spoken to him at length about what his beliefs are. He has been my friend for over 8 years now. I have every reason to trust him. I have far less reason to trust you as your beliefs of mistrust and deceit tell more about you then any shred about him.

Charge I don't think he wanted to offend you.

 

[gladius]

Speak what you know of. You don't know him so you can't judge. I can tell you this, when I was in very desperate circumstances only one friend dropped everything, selfsacrificed and came to my aid without a moment's hesitation. This was only the most significant time he showed his true colors, time and time again he has shown me what a true friend he really is.

And as I said before, I have spoken to him at length about what his beliefs are. He has been my friend for over 8 years now. I have every reason to trust him. I have far less reason to trust you as your beliefs of mistrust and deceit tell more about you then any shred about him.

I think you are taking this the wrong way.

I am simply saying what the Muslim beliefs are, and your personal friendship between the two of you---are two seperate enteties entirely.

Peole can still be best friends but believe in different ideologies. The best example I can give was from the movie "Getysburg" where two generals from opposing sides where still best friends even during the same battle (true to life).

Who knows maybe this guy is a true Muslim moderate who doesn't beleive in terrorism. But then he would be in the minority (at least around the world). That doesn't mean the rest don't. You were saying that the original post was unintelligent, which it wasn't.

You seem to be equating your friendship with this guy to a global prespective, which is a total misrepresentation. Just because things work out for you in a personal one to one level doesn't means it works that way all the way around, I think its a bit arrogant to think that way.

I think you are taking this a little too personal, by saying I have beliefs of "mistrust and deceit".

I merely pointing out facts.

The fact is: people who have strong religiuos beliefs, will hold those beliefs above all other earthly things, whether it is country, friendship, or what have you. This is fact, plain and simple . Your relation to your friend doesn't change that (how seriuosly he takes his religion does however).

Another fact is, Muslims do not discuss certain aspects of their religion to non-muslims. This is only to be discused between Muslims themsleves.

 

[Charge 7]

I know. And that's all that matters to me.

You want to talk about arrogance? You're summing up an entire people. You can't get much more arrogant than that.

 

[MontyB]

In fact I'm friends with one of the Muslims at work, I even helped him move from his house when he needed my help just recently.

Them being friends with you, and what they believe is a completely seperate entity.

Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

I think you are confused as to what a friend is as I don't believe that you can call someone a friend and then go on to catagorise him alongside terrorists.

I cant honestly cant say that I know anyone I consider a friend but I don't trust or believe are deceptive about the friendship or maybe sympathetic to a group that wants to kill me.

I would suggest renaming that "friendship" as an acquaintance.

 

[gladius]

I think the both of you still don't get it that having friends and having religious beliefs can be two seperate enteties. (this applies to non-religious as well)

They can be your freind and also be symphtetic to terrorist. That doesn't mean they want you dead, they don't because you are their friend. But they don't care that the terrorist kill other people they don't know, because this is what thier ideology tells them to believe as far as the big picture goes. A lot of them probably wish it were not so, but its not up to them to decide the big picture scenario, its just what they believe to be true.

If a person believes in something strongly enough you can't change that (unless he converts or something). That doesn't mean you can't have good relations with each other. This is my point, not that your freind wants to kill you, he just has a set of beliefs that is totaly alien or diametricaly opposed to yours, as far as the big picture goes. When it come to the small picture (personal matters) it is a different story, then will be there when you need them, and vice-versa.

There are examples like I already pointed out of poeple being good friends yet have different ideaologies even during war. Will that freind directly kill the other friend, probabbly not, he will probably turn the other way, but that does not mean does not believe in what he believes in.

That guy at work I mention about is a actually a friend, if he needs help I go to help. If I need help, and I have before he has helped me. I can't change what he believes I know this, that doesn't mean we can't treat each other like decent human beings.

You want to talk about arrogance? You're summing up an entire people. You can't get much more arrogant than that.

I was merely pointing out facts. You seem to have this usumption that what applies to you, apllies to the greater majority of everyone else, and that your experience is the end all of everything, not so.

 

[Whispering Death]

There are two types of people who do not mix with me.
1) Those who don't watch porn
2) Those that sympathise with terrorists

It's that simple. If I'm just getting pissed the hell off at someone chances are good they'll fall into one of those two catagories.

That being said, I see where gladius is comming from although it doesn't really apply to me since I don't hold any crazy religious beliefs. Basically he's saying that most muslims sympathise with terrorists in a way simply because that's the religion but they seperate it from their daily life. You might say that's odd but think about this, why are you talking to me? I'm an atheist so I'm going straight to hell... you know, eternity of gnashing of teeth and flames and all that good stuff. Now I'd say that me going to hell is a lot worse than getting hit by an airplane in your office and getting sent straight on up to haven now don't you say? So if you can speak to me on this forum, then it seems reasonable that gladius can hang with his psychopathic muslim buddy.

I mean, if your a christian then all terrorists are really doing is sending people to heaven, meanwhile you're hanging with a guy who could lead you with him to everlasting damnation. So hanging with terrorist sympathisers is better than speaking with me 8)

Mull that one over.

 

[Shadowalker]

Can you be an atheist and believe in hell.....?