The Problem with "good" Muslims




 
--
Boots
 
August 7th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 

Topic: The Problem with "good" Muslims


Short news report followed by commentary

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Some U.S. Muslims worry about chill on free speech

A life sentence given Wednesday to a prominent Muslim scholar in Fairfax, Va., is raising concerns among some American Muslim leaders that their rights to free speech may be curbed.

In April, Ali al-Timimi was convicted of soliciting treason after he encouraged his followers to fight U.S. troops and join the Taliban immediately after the 9-11 attacks. He was also convicted for inducing others to use firearms.

A group of young Muslim men were also convicted of crimes related to the conspiracy. Called the "Virginia jihad network" by authorities, the men, over whom prosecutors said al-Timimi had influence, played paintball games in 2000 and 2001 and were said to be training for holy war.

The life sentence came as a surprise to area Muslims.

"This is like being convicted of murder, even though you haven't killed anyone," said Imam Johari Abdul-Malik, outreach director of Dar Al-Hijrah Islamic Center in Falls Church, Va.

Abdul-Malik said although many Muslims found some of the scholar's statements inappropriate, "we never thought that impropriety on the part of al-Timimi's speech, whether protected by the First Amendment or not, would be matched by such a severe sentence."

At his mosque Wednesday night, Abdul-Malik said, he observed "a numbing effect" among members who were "shocked" at the severity of the sentence.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Gordon Kromberg said Timimi "deserves every day of the time he will serve. ... Timimi hates the United States and calls for its destruction. He is allowed to do that [in the U.S.]. He is not allowed to solicit treason."

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The problem with "good" non-violent muslims, in my opinion, is how they always support their kind, even when it is someone who is actively supporting the killing of American serviemen from WITHIN America! We've heard of numerous fatwas and holy wars against America but even after 9/11 there arn't many in the islamic community who issue fatwas against Bin Laddin instead trying to turn the discussion into racism and how Americans are beating up on muslims. I think most Americans think that most muslims are good but after 4 years of this kind of stuff how much will it take to push them over the edge into full blown hatred of the muslim community?

What do you think about all of this?
August 7th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
i think your use of quotation marks on "good" would justify there fear.


have some empathy man! how would you feel if it was your freedom of speech threatened on the basis of your religion
August 7th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 

Topic: Re: The Problem with "good" Muslims


Quote:
Originally Posted by Whispering Death
The problem with "good" non-violent muslims, in my opinion, is how they always support their kind, even when it is someone who is actively supporting the killing of American serviemen from WITHIN America! We've heard of numerous fatwas and holy wars against America but even after 9/11 there arn't many in the islamic community who issue fatwas against Bin Laddin instead trying to turn the discussion into racism and how Americans are beating up on muslims. I think most Americans think that most muslims are good but after 4 years of this kind of stuff how much will it take to push them over the edge into full blown hatred of the muslim community?

What do you think about all of this?
I think that statement is the least intelligent one you've ever made. Sorry, but that's my stand on it. As I have mentioned more than once, one of the closest friends I have on this planet is a Muslim. He has never supported "their kind" in all things and most certainly not in the attacks of terrorism. Many times he has openly stated he deplores them and also stated that it is against Islam. His family feels the same way, and the friends of his I have met in the Muslim community in Boston feel the same as well.

Too many people seem to feel that because average Muslims do not voice loudly their rejection of the Muslim extremists that this means that by default they support them. Let me ask you this, how many mainstream blacks denounced the Black Panthers and other extremist black organizations and people during the violence of the '50s, 60s, and '70s? Not many if any. And why? They didn't wish to call attention to themselves and held to the belief that the nail that sticks out the farthest gets pounded first. When you are already living with a lower standard than those in control you do not ask to be noticed.
--
Boots
August 7th, 2005  
Rabs
 
 
The problem is that in a war on terror, your either with us or against us. Even if its non-violent people that preach hate about America from within our borders. Theres at least a 100 diffrent countries they can go to or a nice comfy bed at gitmo.
August 7th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabs
The problem is that in a war on terror, your either with us or against us. Even if its non-violent people that preach hate about America from within our borders. Theres at least a 100 diffrent countries they can go to or a nice comfy bed at gitmo.
The world is not so black and white. If you say nothing are you then guilty of not being "with us"? If you disagree with any part of what is happening are you also so guilty? I think not. If you're correct, then you had best start with locking up General Abizaid as he has stated publicly a contradiction of statements by Vice President Cheney.

http://csmonitor.com/2005/0624/dailyUpdate.html

All things, including the war on terror, must be evaluated in the context of the facts at hand and in relation to their meaning. Sweeping judgements serve the dictator, not a free society.
August 7th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 
My first college roomate was a practicing Suni. He's a good guy we got along very well.

Here's the problem. Not everyone in America is best friends with every muslim so their impressions of the mulsim community is what they hear. More and more recently I've been hearing rumblings about the Islamic community in the "who'se side are they on?" line of questioning. All the average American hears from the Islamic community are things like "why are you imprisoning my iman for life just for calling for the death of Americans." And every time a muslim being pulled out of line for the random security check goes "whoa whoa whoa why do you want to pull ME out of line" what does the average person think, "Shit, that arab is concerned about the security check, should I start running?"

You can't dismiss it as "the least intelligent statement I've ever made" because the reason we invaded Iraq is because we percieved Saddam to be more of a threat than he was, if large segments of the American population percieve that most muslims are on 'their' side and not 'ours' the result isn't going to be pretty.

At the same time, while it is comforting we imprisoned him, it is deeply disturbing that we have Imans in America who are preaching al-Quaida hate-speach from the pulpit and there are those Americans willing to follow, even defend him.
August 7th, 2005  
Shadowalker
 
 
I think you have to be quite ignorant/ easily brainwashed by the media to think that the majority of muslims are on "their" side. In everyday life its easy to see that the terrorists are a minority as if they were a majority there would be more terrorist instances. I know in britain the recent london bombs have been condemned by every religious leader including the main muslim leaders.

I just wish we were taking an active stand against the imans praising the terrorists here in britain. i am all for freedom of speech but allowing men who are praising the violence into the country and letting them stay...
August 7th, 2005  
gladius
 

Topic: Re: The Problem with "good" Muslims


Quote:
Originally Posted by Charge 7
I think that statement is the least intelligent one you've ever made. Sorry, but that's my stand on it. As I have mentioned more than once, one of the closest friends I have on this planet is a Muslim. He has never supported "their kind" in all things and most certainly not in the attacks of terrorism. Many times he has openly stated he deplores them and also stated that it is against Islam. His family feels the same way, and the friends of his I have met in the Muslim community in Boston feel the same as well.
I don't think this is so unintelligent as you might think.

Let me tell you a story of something that actually happened at my work.

There several Muslims at my work place, they are pretty good guys they get along with most everyone at work, everyone thinks well of them, for the most part. After 9/11 they all condemed the attacks saying they don't support the terrorist and stuff.

I have this good freind there who is Egyptian (but not Muslim). Sometime after 9/11 (about 8 months) one of these Muslims at my work came up to him thinking that he was also Muslim. This Muslim guy started to proceeded to talk to him about 9/11, and told him; THAT IT WAS A GOOD THING THAT 9/11 HAPPENED TO AMERICA. My freind replied that he was not Muslim and basicly told him off. He told me about this, but he wasn't really surprise, him coming from Egypt and all and seeing first hand how non-muslims are treated over there. I that guy was just saying that for the benefit of everyone at work to hear.

Maybe the Muslims you talk to openly deplore terrorism. But how do they really feel behind closed doors when they are talking amongst themsleves? Its probably a different story. Alot of them would probably never do it, but are probably sympathetic to it, although they would never say this to a non-muslim.

They say one thing to us who are non-muslim, with themsleves most of the time its something else. I can give you a perfect example from one of the other post that was place recently.
August 7th, 2005  
Italian Guy
 
 

Topic: Re: The Problem with "good" Muslims


Quote:
Originally Posted by gladius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charge 7
I think that statement is the least intelligent one you've ever made. Sorry, but that's my stand on it. As I have mentioned more than once, one of the closest friends I have on this planet is a Muslim. He has never supported "their kind" in all things and most certainly not in the attacks of terrorism. Many times he has openly stated he deplores them and also stated that it is against Islam. His family feels the same way, and the friends of his I have met in the Muslim community in Boston feel the same as well.
I don't think this is so unintelligent as you might think.

Let me tell you a story of something that actually happened at my work.

There several Muslims at my work place, they are pretty good guys they get along with most everyone at work, everyone thinks well of them, for the most part. After 9/11 they all condemed the attacks saying they don't support the terrorist and stuff.

I have this good freind there who is Egyptian (but not Muslim). Sometime after 9/11 (about 8 months) one of these Muslims at my work came up to him thinking that he was also Muslim. This Muslim guy started to proceeded to talk to him about 9/11, and told him; THAT IT WAS A GOOD THING THAT 9/11 HAPPENED TO AMERICA. My freind replied that he was not Muslim and basicly told him off. He told me about this, but he wasn't really surprise, him coming from Egypt and all and seeing first hand how non-muslims are treated over there. I that guy was just saying that for the benefit of everyone at work to hear.

Maybe the Muslims you talk to openly deplore terrorism. But how do they really feel behind closed doors when they are talking amongst themsleves? Its probably a different story. Alot of them would probably never do it, but are probably sympathetic to it, although they would never say this to a non-muslim.

They say one thing to us who are non-muslim, with themsleves most of the time its something else. I can give you a perfect example from one of the other post that was place recently.
I have share a house with a Muslim integralist, fervent supporter of UBL. It happened from 9/11 to March of the following year. He would bless BL and stuff. He was obsessed with the jews. He and friends cheered on 9/11, made toasts in front of those images on tv.
This is a perfectly integrated and wealthy guy.
He just wouldn't say up with BL outdoors.
Anyways whether a "moderate" muslim population and culture really exist, is IMO THE big question to answer.
Hints leading to answering "Gladio's right" are numerous. My dad probably said a true thing: "Moderate Muslims exist: My concern is that they might make up just about a small fraction of our muslims".
That is, yeah they exist, but what if only 20 % of muslims are moderate?
What would our attitude have to be then?
Let's not forget that a survey conducted by al Jazeera asking its watchers "Do you think it is good and correct to kidnap, threaten and sometimes kill non-muslims for the sake of Islam?" a resounding 80% answered yes. That might not be representative of the whole muslim world, but...
I wish it wasn't so, because it would mean this war is lost from the beginning. We absolutely need their support, outspoken, frank, brave.
August 7th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 

Topic: Re: The Problem with "good" Muslims


Quote:
Originally Posted by gladius
Maybe the Muslims you talk to openly deplore terrorism. But how do they really feel behind closed doors when they are talking amongst themsleves? Its probably a different story. Alot of them would probably never do it, but are probably sympathetic to it, although they would never say this to a non-muslim.

They say one thing to us who are non-muslim, with themsleves most of the time its something else. I can give you a perfect example from one of the other post that was place recently.
I don't have to wonder what a friend who's been there for me when I really needed him thinks when I'm not around. His actions towards me have spoken volumes. You may have all the doubt and mistrust you want. You're the poorer and I'm the richer.