The Problem with "good" Muslims - Page 3




 
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Boots
 
August 9th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
gladius, I never once said my friend summed up an entire people. I did say that if he exists, others do as well. Therefore your argument of all Muslims being alike is wrong.

Why do I respond here? It's quite simple. I believe that liberty is for all people or it is meaningless for the remainder. I've seen you and others who agree with you talk of our liberation of Iraq. But what liberty do you call it if you would set anybody of Muslim origin into a special catagory of "not to be trusted" and "a threat to security"? As Martin Luthor King, Jr. said "A threat to one man's liberty anywhere is a threat to all men's liberty everywhere". That is why I will fight you and all who think like you.
August 9th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowalker
Can you be an atheist and believe in h**l.....?
I guess technically you can, like if you just believe that everyone who dies goes to hell you don't need a god. Anyway, I don't, I was just thinking out loud.
August 9th, 2005  
gladius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charge 7
gladius, I never once said my friend summed up an entire people. I did say that if he exists, others do as well. Therefore your argument of all Muslims being alike is wrong.
First of all when did I say that all Muslims are alike.

I have aways believed that there are true Muslim moderates (as per Italian Guy's statemants) who really don't support or are even symphatetic to terrorist, but they simply are in the minority (20% or so higher probably in the US due to social factors).

Maybe your freind (and mine too) falls into this category, I don't know for sure. Since Muslims have beliefs that they do not talk to to non-Muslims.

Quote:
Why do I respond here? It's quite simple. I believe that liberty is for all people or it is meaningless for the remainder. I've seen you and others who agree with you talk of our liberation of Iraq. But what liberty do you call it if you would set anybody of Muslim origin into a special catagory of "not to be trusted" and "a threat to security"? As Martin Luthor King, Jr. said "A threat to one man's liberty anywhere is a threat to all men's liberty everywhere". That is why I will fight you and all who think like you.
I don't most of them are a threat per say. They would never do it themselves or probably directly help any of the bombers. Most of them would probably even report a bomber, if they knew he was going to attack. But they are symphatetic to them and can emphatize with them. This issue for them goes beyond liberty, security, country, or anything else.

Unless something is done to cuase shift in Muslim thinking then things will stay the same or get worse.

What we are doing in Iraq is giving the moderate elements in Islam a chance to shift that thinking. But like you said yourself most are not willing to stand out. Unless they do something then the true radicals will take over since they are the ones willing to take action, so far their influence is growing.

I'm simply outlinning the facts, you can fight it but your simply fighting the facts. Only the Muslims can change themsleve they will have to do it form within. If they truly deplore terrorism they need to take strong action, step up, and back up thier words, but like you said they are unwilling to. So far most of the action taken by Muslim groups is in support of their own, and those sypathetic to radical Islam. They say one thing but do another (most of them at least). If the moderates don't step up then the battle is already lost.

btw what Whispering Death said was a good illustration of what I was trying to say.
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Boots
August 9th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
And you can call your claims "facts" but that will not make them so.
August 9th, 2005  
gladius
 
Only according to you.
August 10th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
This is digressing into a personal attack. Of course there are many who can find fault with your "facts". More than one has already commented as such in this thread. Your attacks are as insubstantial as your "facts".
August 10th, 2005  
gladius
 
I think you are taking this a little too personally. Besides you are the one who called me deceitful, ect. As far as the personal attacks you seem to be instigating it.

I like to see the facts as a whole regardless of how I feel personally, becauise no matter how anyone feels at the moment is not going to change it. The facts are simply there.
August 10th, 2005  
Chocobo_Blitzer
 
You just can't paint the majority of Islamic people as essentially evil, because when you do, you're basicly speeding up the process the terrorists, Islamic radicals, whatever, you're basicly speeding up their goal.

That's what they want, they want a "them" and "us". There's not enough "evidence" to suggest muslims are all fanatical deep down inside. I think it's an insult to the complexity of the issue and the psychology of muslims.

But, I'm not totally sold on the idea that moderate Islam will stand up and fight in this war (on terror). I'm just.... I don't know, but I don't have total faith...
August 10th, 2005  
gladius
 
I don't think they are essentially evil nor fanatic, but there is a part of them that symphatizes with the terrorist.

As far as the issue of psychology, the more fanatical Muslims (maybe 20%) take the Kohran very litteraly, the Moderates (maybe 20%) take it more subjectively (meaning as guidelines rather than word for word).

The majority of Muslims (the other 60%) take the Koran somewhat literally, which means they lean slightly towards the fanatics. Although they won't follow through with action, their symphaties are there based on what they believe.

In order for this to change, it will take a dramatic shift to sway this 60% to the side of of the moderates. The thing is the moderates themsleves are going to have to make this happen, we can help them along (Iraq) but they will have to do most of the stuff themselves, it cannot come from Westerners. (Btw I say this based on my more indepth study of aspects Islam as of late)

The problem is like you said, the moderates are don't seem to want to stand up and fight this war on terrorism. The thing is they have to, if not then the radical element will grow and grow, not only that it make the moderates look bad as most people see their unwillingness to do too much as a sign that they are also symphatetic to the terrorist. So far they havent done very much to convice me. Like you, I hate to say this, but I don't have faith that they will do too much. (Also based on what I studied of the Kohran so far, I really think the moderates have an uphill battle convincing everyone else they are right, again I hate to say this but it seems t be true.)
August 10th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladius
I think you are taking this a little too personally. Besides you are the one who called me deceitful, ect. As far as the personal attacks you seem to be instigating it.
Friendship is personal. I will defend my friend. You, however, don't seem to know what friendship is.

You instigated it in stating that my friend was deceiving me (i.e. I must be be too stupid and blind to know the truth).