The Problem with "good" Muslims

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gladius, I never once said my friend summed up an entire people. I did say that if he exists, others do as well. Therefore your argument of all Muslims being alike is wrong.

Why do I respond here? It's quite simple. I believe that liberty is for all people or it is meaningless for the remainder. I've seen you and others who agree with you talk of our liberation of Iraq. But what liberty do you call it if you would set anybody of Muslim origin into a special catagory of "not to be trusted" and "a threat to security"? As Martin Luthor King, Jr. said "A threat to one man's liberty anywhere is a threat to all men's liberty everywhere". That is why I will fight you and all who think like you.
 
Shadowalker said:
Can you be an atheist and believe in h**l.....?

I guess technically you can, like if you just believe that everyone who dies goes to hell you don't need a god. Anyway, I don't, I was just thinking out loud.
 
Charge 7 said:
gladius, I never once said my friend summed up an entire people. I did say that if he exists, others do as well. Therefore your argument of all Muslims being alike is wrong.

First of all when did I say that all Muslims are alike.

I have aways believed that there are true Muslim moderates (as per Italian Guy's statemants) who really don't support or are even symphatetic to terrorist, but they simply are in the minority (20% or so higher probably in the US due to social factors).

Maybe your freind (and mine too) falls into this category, I don't know for sure. Since Muslims have beliefs that they do not talk to to non-Muslims.

Why do I respond here? It's quite simple. I believe that liberty is for all people or it is meaningless for the remainder. I've seen you and others who agree with you talk of our liberation of Iraq. But what liberty do you call it if you would set anybody of Muslim origin into a special catagory of "not to be trusted" and "a threat to security"? As Martin Luthor King, Jr. said "A threat to one man's liberty anywhere is a threat to all men's liberty everywhere". That is why I will fight you and all who think like you.

I don't most of them are a threat per say. They would never do it themselves or probably directly help any of the bombers. Most of them would probably even report a bomber, if they knew he was going to attack. But they are symphatetic to them and can emphatize with them. This issue for them goes beyond liberty, security, country, or anything else.

Unless something is done to cuase shift in Muslim thinking then things will stay the same or get worse.

What we are doing in Iraq is giving the moderate elements in Islam a chance to shift that thinking. But like you said yourself most are not willing to stand out. Unless they do something then the true radicals will take over since they are the ones willing to take action, so far their influence is growing.

I'm simply outlinning the facts, you can fight it but your simply fighting the facts. Only the Muslims can change themsleve they will have to do it form within. If they truly deplore terrorism they need to take strong action, step up, and back up thier words, but like you said they are unwilling to. So far most of the action taken by Muslim groups is in support of their own, and those sypathetic to radical Islam. They say one thing but do another (most of them at least). If the moderates don't step up then the battle is already lost.

btw what Whispering Death said was a good illustration of what I was trying to say.
 
This is digressing into a personal attack. Of course there are many who can find fault with your "facts". More than one has already commented as such in this thread. Your attacks are as insubstantial as your "facts".
 
I think you are taking this a little too personally. Besides you are the one who called me deceitful, ect. As far as the personal attacks you seem to be instigating it.

I like to see the facts as a whole regardless of how I feel personally, becauise no matter how anyone feels at the moment is not going to change it. The facts are simply there.
 
You just can't paint the majority of Islamic people as essentially evil, because when you do, you're basicly speeding up the process the terrorists, Islamic radicals, whatever, you're basicly speeding up their goal.

That's what they want, they want a "them" and "us". There's not enough "evidence" to suggest muslims are all fanatical deep down inside. I think it's an insult to the complexity of the issue and the psychology of muslims.

But, I'm not totally sold on the idea that moderate Islam will stand up and fight in this war (on terror). I'm just.... I don't know, but I don't have total faith...
 
I don't think they are essentially evil nor fanatic, but there is a part of them that symphatizes with the terrorist.

As far as the issue of psychology, the more fanatical Muslims (maybe 20%) take the Kohran very litteraly, the Moderates (maybe 20%) take it more subjectively (meaning as guidelines rather than word for word).

The majority of Muslims (the other 60%) take the Koran somewhat literally, which means they lean slightly towards the fanatics. Although they won't follow through with action, their symphaties are there based on what they believe.

In order for this to change, it will take a dramatic shift to sway this 60% to the side of of the moderates. The thing is the moderates themsleves are going to have to make this happen, we can help them along (Iraq) but they will have to do most of the stuff themselves, it cannot come from Westerners. (Btw I say this based on my more indepth study of aspects Islam as of late)

The problem is like you said, the moderates are don't seem to want to stand up and fight this war on terrorism. The thing is they have to, if not then the radical element will grow and grow, not only that it make the moderates look bad as most people see their unwillingness to do too much as a sign that they are also symphatetic to the terrorist. So far they havent done very much to convice me. Like you, I hate to say this, but I don't have faith that they will do too much. (Also based on what I studied of the Kohran so far, I really think the moderates have an uphill battle convincing everyone else they are right, again I hate to say this but it seems t be true.)
 
gladius said:
I think you are taking this a little too personally. Besides you are the one who called me deceitful, ect. As far as the personal attacks you seem to be instigating it.

Friendship is personal. I will defend my friend. You, however, don't seem to know what friendship is.

You instigated it in stating that my friend was deceiving me (i.e. I must be be too stupid and blind to know the truth).
 
There you go again with your personal attacks.

...and you blame me for personal attacks, you need to look at yourself more closely.

Im not instigating that your friend is decieving you.

What I said essentially was that Muslims have beliefs that they share only with other Muslims. They do not share this stuff with non-muslims

And that people can keep their ideologies and friendships separate.

Whether your friend does it or not I don't know. In fact, I even said that he could be one of the Muslims who are moderates and not support the terrorist at all(I know I mentioned this).

You were equating your experience with your friend to everybody's experience, and you seem to think that is tha finality of it, and you get mad when its not. There is a broader spectrum than solely your experience alone.

Whispering Death even made the point of what I was trying to say. You just don't seem to get it. You now have degenerated this into a personal attack and you blame me for it, you are cracking nonsense.
 
Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

You don't even know what you're saying anymore. So you're not saying my friend is deceiving me? You did just there.

I said it before, I'll say it again since you seem to be hard of hearing. I never once applied my experience with my friend to equate to all Muslims. I said - one more time - that if he exists, others like him do as well and your wish to catagorize all Muslims is wrong.
 
I said that because I know, and I told you repeatedly that there are certain aspects of the Muslims religion that that Muslims do not discussed with non-muslims.

I did not say he was decieving you, but there are certain thing he will never talk to you about because you are NOT Muslim.

In any case if he truly does not like the terrorist then he in fact has told you truth, if this is so then good.

If there is some part of him that does have feelings of sympathy for the terrorist then he will not tell you about it, because you are not Muslim, simple as that.

Also did I not sya there are true Muslim moderate who truly do not agree with terrorist, so do you keep bringing this categorizing all stuff. I am pointing out an aspect of their religion that is there.
 
Charge 7 said:
Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

You don't even know what you're saying anymore. So you're not saying my friend is deceiving me? You did just there.

I said it before, I'll say it again since you seem to be hard of hearing. I never once applied my experience with my friend to equate to all Muslims. I said - one more time - that if he exists, others like him do as well and your wish to catagorize all Muslims is wrong.
gladius is right that certain perceptions of belief's and ideologies about worldly affairs of muslims do differ from that of the western people.

Muslims do tend to hide their personal feelings about the complicated issue of terrorism from their western buddies. This is not true in all the cases though and some would come out clear but most are careful including me!
 
TBA_PAKI said:
Charge 7 said:
Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

You don't even know what you're saying anymore. So you're not saying my friend is deceiving me? You did just there.

I said it before, I'll say it again since you seem to be hard of hearing. I never once applied my experience with my friend to equate to all Muslims. I said - one more time - that if he exists, others like him do as well and your wish to catagorize all Muslims is wrong.
gladius is right that certain perceptions of belief's and ideologies about worldly affairs of muslims do differ from that of the western people.

Muslims do tend to hide their personal feelings about the complicated issue of terrorism from their western buddies. This is not true in all the cases though and some would come out clear but most are careful including me!

Duh! Christians beliefs and ideologies about worldly affairs differ from Muslims too. Is this really necessary to point out? It isn't relevant to the discussion.

Also, if you read my earlier posts I quite clearly stated that Muslims do not make an effort to voice their opinions exactly as you say, because they're being careful - both not to call attention to themselves and not to be misunderstood in a discussion that could impact their lives. This does not mean, however, that they are deceitful with non-Muslims whom they do know and do trust.
 
Charge 7 said:
TBA_PAKI said:
Charge 7 said:
Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

You don't even know what you're saying anymore. So you're not saying my friend is deceiving me? You did just there.

I said it before, I'll say it again since you seem to be hard of hearing. I never once applied my experience with my friend to equate to all Muslims. I said - one more time - that if he exists, others like him do as well and your wish to catagorize all Muslims is wrong.
gladius is right that certain perceptions of belief's and ideologies about worldly affairs of muslims do differ from that of the western people.

Muslims do tend to hide their personal feelings about the complicated issue of terrorism from their western buddies. This is not true in all the cases though and some would come out clear but most are careful including me!

Duh! Christians beliefs and ideologies about worldly affairs differ from Muslims too. Is this really necessary to point out? It isn't relevant to the discussion.

Also, if you read my earlier posts I quite clearly stated that Muslims do not make an effort to voice their opinions exactly as you say, because they're being careful - both not to call attention to themselves and not to be misunderstood in a discussion that could impact their lives. This does not mean, however, that they are deceitful with non-Muslims whom they do know and do trust.
Well you have a valid point that true friendship stands out between such situations and this is an indication of a broad minded approach among the thoughts of muslims about the perception of their western buddies.

But this ideology applies only in case that both such partners of different belief's share an ideal relationship among them and do not let worldy affairs disturb it.
 
Re- The Problem with "Good" Muslims

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Rabs wrote:
The problem is that in a war on terror, your either with us or against us. Even if its non-violent people that preach hate about America from within our borders. Theres at least a 100 diffrent countries they can go to or a nice comfy bed at gitmo.

Charge 7 wrote:
The world is not so black and white. If you say nothing are you then guilty of not being "with us"? If you disagree with any part of what is happening are you also so guilty?

So then they have had a free ride, all this time! Someone's *got* to take responsibility if the job's going to get done! You think that's easy? We must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people. I have a solution on this whole damn thing. That is a piece of land big as some larger state. Buy it free from the gouvernment. Make a constitution as they are doing in Iraq at this moment, where you simply forbid Islam inside it´s boundarys.

And all people that want to hang around with Muslims, can do that OUTSIDE this new state, because some of us get`s kind of tired of taking the naive and stupid under our wings when the shit hit´s the propeller and they realise what the reality looks like. Another great thing with such a state. There is nothing a couple of Patriot SAM units can´t solve in the sky if there is going to be suicide air-men in the skies. There is no Muslim that will cross that boarder because you have to convert before even taking a step in to that land. That land is for people that want to live and not have to toss themselves into submission as fast as a foreigner says "die you infidels".

This place would be like the Vatican very closed for the rest of the world. And socialism as communism would be as banned as national socialism (Nazi) is in Sweden. You might think I`m being unjust and only carring about my "people" But I got news. We are in this for the specie boys and girls. Would´nt make much sence to me to declare jihad on my own "country" now would it? This place should alow all world religions except for Islam. Convert and then you are free to believe in whatever god you want. But Islam is banned for all eternity.

Then you keep people safe, and only then you will have a safe haven for people that have taken a stand for a life in freedom and free from outside oppression in form of foreign terrorism, bombs as with financial terrorism = oil etc, etc. Everyone in that community should lay an oath a promise to defend this land/country from outside attacks such as Islamic Insurgents and their supporters amongs common people in the rest of this world. :lol:

Doc.S medicin man
:viking:
 
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