the main problem i see here is the "us" and "them" attitude. it is naturally negative and makes for all sorts of problems for people to get along.
the islamic community (like most major religions) is a very tight knit one, and as Charge said, no one really wants to stand out from the group. there is a difference between not supporting the radicals and supporting "us."

too many people know one rotten apple and they seem to be generalising it to the whole population. how many aetheists do you know who are against abortion? christians who are for gun control? i think the media glare on muslims and the islamic religion is far brighter than is necessary and people are not really thinking or acting rationally, there is too much of a "knee jerk reaction"

Originally Posted by Charge 7

I don't have to wonder what a friend who's been there for me when I really needed him thinks when I'm not around. His actions towards me have spoken volumes. You may have all the doubt and mistrust you want. You're the poorer and I'm the richer.

Your being friends with a Muslim has nothing to do with the overall picture as a whole. Or even what he believes in. They can still treat you nicely and beleive in something totaly opposite of what you believe in.

In fact I'm friends with one of the Muslims at work, I even helped him move from his house when he needed my help just recently.

Them being friends with you, and what they believe is a completely seperate entity.

Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

Muslims have shared beliefs that they will only share with other Muslims. You are trying to equate the whole global scenario with your friend, thats simply not the case here.

You can say what you want about being poorer or richer, ect. I did some studying on Islam and have good sense and ideas of what most of them believe in. Those are simply the facts of the matter and I'm going by those, because it is simply what most of them believe.

Originally Posted by Italian Guy

My dad probably said a true thing: "Moderate Muslims exist: My concern is that they might make up just about a small fraction of our muslims".
That is, yeah they exist, but what if only 20 % of muslims are moderate?
What would our attitude have to be then?
Let's not forget that a survey conducted by al Jazeera asking its watchers "Do you think it is good and correct to kidnap, threaten and sometimes kill non-muslims for the sake of Islam?" a resounding 80% answered yes. That might not be representative of the whole muslim world, but...
I wish it wasn't so, because it would mean this war is lost from the beginning. We absolutely need their support, outspoken, frank, brave.

I agree here, I do think there are moderate Muslims but they are the minority, 20% is about accurate I think. Most of them (the non-moderates), even alot of the ones living in the West are sympathetic to the terrorist.

Whether this war is already lost, it might be. Our efforts right now I think is buying us time. Thats probably the main reason I support the war in Iraq. I don't think it will work out in the long term, but it will defiantely buy us time, which good enough for now.

As far as having their outspoken and brave support, I would like to see it happen. But the thing is do you see it happening? Sporatic efforts here and there by a not that many people, thats about it. Thats the reason I see this lost more than anything else.

There was supposed to be a rally in Washington where some moderates in the Muslim community where trying to organize close to a million people in a show of strenght to rally against terrorism and Islamic extermism, ...well only around 50 people showed up.

Originally Posted by gladius

Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

Speak what you know of. You don't know him so you can't judge. I can tell you this, when I was in very desperate circumstances only one friend dropped everything, selfsacrificed and came to my aid without a moment's hesitation. This was only the most significant time he showed his true colors, time and time again he has shown me what a true friend he really is.

And as I said before, I have spoken to him at length about what his beliefs are. He has been my friend for over 8 years now. I have every reason to trust him. I have far less reason to trust you as your beliefs of mistrust and deceit tell more about you then any shred about him.

Originally Posted by Charge 7

Speak what you know of. You don't know him so you can't judge. I can tell you this, when I was in very desperate circumstances only one friend dropped everything, selfsacrificed and came to my aid without a moment's hesitation. This was only the most significant time he showed his true colors, time and time again he has shown me what a true friend he really is.

And as I said before, I have spoken to him at length about what his beliefs are. He has been my friend for over 8 years now. I have every reason to trust him. I have far less reason to trust you as your beliefs of mistrust and deceit tell more about you then any shred about him.

Charge I don't think he wanted to offend you.

Originally Posted by Charge 7

Speak what you know of. You don't know him so you can't judge. I can tell you this, when I was in very desperate circumstances only one friend dropped everything, selfsacrificed and came to my aid without a moment's hesitation. This was only the most significant time he showed his true colors, time and time again he has shown me what a true friend he really is.

And as I said before, I have spoken to him at length about what his beliefs are. He has been my friend for over 8 years now. I have every reason to trust him. I have far less reason to trust you as your beliefs of mistrust and deceit tell more about you then any shred about him.

I think you are taking this the wrong way.

I am simply saying what the Muslim beliefs are, and your personal friendship between the two of you---are two seperate enteties entirely.

Peole can still be best friends but believe in different ideologies. The best example I can give was from the movie "Getysburg" where two generals from opposing sides where still best friends even during the same battle (true to life).

Who knows maybe this guy is a true Muslim moderate who doesn't beleive in terrorism. But then he would be in the minority (at least around the world). That doesn't mean the rest don't. You were saying that the original post was unintelligent, which it wasn't.

You seem to be equating your friendship with this guy to a global prespective, which is a total misrepresentation. Just because things work out for you in a personal one to one level doesn't means it works that way all the way around, I think its a bit arrogant to think that way.

I think you are taking this a little too personal, by saying I have beliefs of "mistrust and deceit".

I merely pointing out facts.

The fact is: people who have strong religiuos beliefs, will hold those beliefs above all other earthly things, whether it is country, friendship, or what have you. This is fact, plain and simple . Your relation to your friend doesn't change that (how seriuosly he takes his religion does however).

Another fact is, Muslims do not discuss certain aspects of their religion to non-muslims. This is only to be discused between Muslims themsleves.

I know. And that's all that matters to me.

You want to talk about arrogance? You're summing up an entire people. You can't get much more arrogant than that.

Originally Posted by gladius

In fact I'm friends with one of the Muslims at work, I even helped him move from his house when he needed my help just recently.

Them being friends with you, and what they believe is a completely seperate entity.

Whether my Muslim friend that I helped was symphatetic to terrorist, I didn't bother to ask, he probably wouldn't tell me the real truth anyways. The same with your friend.

I think you are confused as to what a friend is as I don't believe that you can call someone a friend and then go on to catagorise him alongside terrorists.

I cant honestly cant say that I know anyone I consider a friend but I don't trust or believe are deceptive about the friendship or maybe sympathetic to a group that wants to kill me.

I would suggest renaming that "friendship" as an acquaintance.

I think the both of you still don't get it that having friends and having religious beliefs can be two seperate enteties. (this applies to non-religious as well)

They can be your freind and also be symphtetic to terrorist. That doesn't mean they want you dead, they don't because you are their friend. But they don't care that the terrorist kill other people they don't know, because this is what thier ideology tells them to believe as far as the big picture goes. A lot of them probably wish it were not so, but its not up to them to decide the big picture scenario, its just what they believe to be true.

If a person believes in something strongly enough you can't change that (unless he converts or something). That doesn't mean you can't have good relations with each other. This is my point, not that your freind wants to kill you, he just has a set of beliefs that is totaly alien or diametricaly opposed to yours, as far as the big picture goes. When it come to the small picture (personal matters) it is a different story, then will be there when you need them, and vice-versa.

There are examples like I already pointed out of poeple being good friends yet have different ideaologies even during war. Will that freind directly kill the other friend, probabbly not, he will probably turn the other way, but that does not mean does not believe in what he believes in.

That guy at work I mention about is a actually a friend, if he needs help I go to help. If I need help, and I have before he has helped me. I can't change what he believes I know this, that doesn't mean we can't treat each other like decent human beings.

Originally Posted by Charge 7

You want to talk about arrogance? You're summing up an entire people. You can't get much more arrogant than that.

I was merely pointing out facts. You seem to have this usumption that what applies to you, apllies to the greater majority of everyone else, and that your experience is the end all of everything, not so.

There are two types of people who do not mix with me.
1) Those who don't watch porn
2) Those that sympathise with terrorists

It's that simple. If I'm just getting pissed the hell off at someone chances are good they'll fall into one of those two catagories.

That being said, I see where gladius is comming from although it doesn't really apply to me since I don't hold any crazy religious beliefs. Basically he's saying that most muslims sympathise with terrorists in a way simply because that's the religion but they seperate it from their daily life. You might say that's odd but think about this, why are you talking to me? I'm an atheist so I'm going straight to hell... you know, eternity of gnashing of teeth and flames and all that good stuff. Now I'd say that me going to hell is a lot worse than getting hit by an airplane in your office and getting sent straight on up to haven now don't you say? So if you can speak to me on this forum, then it seems reasonable that gladius can hang with his psychopathic muslim buddy.

I mean, if your a christian then all terrorists are really doing is sending people to heaven, meanwhile you're hanging with a guy who could lead you with him to everlasting damnation. So hanging with terrorist sympathisers is better than speaking with me 8)

Mull that one over.

Can you be an atheist and believe in hell.....?