Prisoner Photos by Navy SEALs
Chocobo_Blitzer
Active member
Hmm abuse? What abuse? I only see prisoners.
RnderSafe
Active member
egoz said:
Then you don't agree with me at all, or the premise behind my statement. Before you start to make judgements concerning who has been "caught," perhaps you should have the entire facts behind the photos. Just because the media told you that's what you see, you automatically believe it. Funny how that works.
I see where your coming from. If the soldiers are SF and photos were published of them then it can be a violation of OPSEC. It puts their life and their buddies lives at risk. If the media took the pictures and published them without the consent of the soliders, then sure, it's a violation of security. But, for a second, lets assume the soldiers did take the pictures. If they knew it could be such a violation of security why would they go around taking pictures and letting them get loose? Then again, assuming the article is correct, why would they publish it on the internet? It doesn't make sense to me if you're trying not to get caught. From that point of view it seems as if the soldiers themselves didn't care about OPSEC.
Assuming the media took the pictures, like an embedded photographer, then why didn't the soldiers think about their actions? If they knew that it could get out into the open, since it is for some type of media figure, then why would they let the pictures be taken in the first place? At least know something about the person that is taking the pictures, or confiscate the film. I can't see them letting someone take pictures and not asking questions like who do you report for, or where are these going to end up, or what kind of clearance do you have to be here and/or witness this? They must have known it was a violation of some sort. It doesn't matter who gave the order. If you are going to do something so obviously against regulations then don't flaunt it around unless you want to get caught.
I'm not putting all the blame on the soldiers, but you can't go around and say they couldn't have done anything about it since they obviously posed for some of them. If the photographer was hiding in the bushes and took pictures of them beating up a guy that was tied up, then that's a different story. But that isn't the case since we see them smiling for the camera.
Assuming the media took the pictures, like an embedded photographer, then why didn't the soldiers think about their actions? If they knew that it could get out into the open, since it is for some type of media figure, then why would they let the pictures be taken in the first place? At least know something about the person that is taking the pictures, or confiscate the film. I can't see them letting someone take pictures and not asking questions like who do you report for, or where are these going to end up, or what kind of clearance do you have to be here and/or witness this? They must have known it was a violation of some sort. It doesn't matter who gave the order. If you are going to do something so obviously against regulations then don't flaunt it around unless you want to get caught.
I'm not putting all the blame on the soldiers, but you can't go around and say they couldn't have done anything about it since they obviously posed for some of them. If the photographer was hiding in the bushes and took pictures of them beating up a guy that was tied up, then that's a different story. But that isn't the case since we see them smiling for the camera.
RnderSafe
Active member
egoz said:
Again, you assume they got caught "degrading" EPWs because the media tells you to. You don't know the facts behind the photos, you don't know the circumstances .. and from a professional point of view, the majority look like intelligence photos. Your judgements do not come from anything more than a knee jerk reaction.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-12/04/xin_4921201041118781507524.jpgRnderSafe said:
ok, let's say you're right and they are intel photos. explain how sitting on a tied up prisoner while smiling and posing for a camera is professional. i'm not an intel agent but from a professional point of view maybe you could tell me how this particular situation fits in. you're right, a majority of the photos look like intel photos. but that doesn't change the fact that some of them are questionable.
i admit the source of these photos is questionable, since it is a chinese news agency. and the possibility is there that we can take these photos out of context. but how far out of context could someone possibly be in some of these situations?Edited to remove photo
RnderSafe
Active member
egoz said:
I see a photo of an operator .. nothing more, nothing less. How do you know he is posing .. did you ask him? Were you there? Do you know why he may be sitting as he is? Do you know why he's smiling? Is smiling a crime by those sitting in the safety of their living rooms, passing judgements on nothing more than a few images? Do you know this particular team's OPTEMP? Do you know the circumstances of which this particular photograph was taken? Do you know the events prior? It is always a good idea to know the facts before passing judgement.
I've said enough on this, debating this with those who like to think they know it all, yet, have never been there, is a fruitless effort.
Btw, these men's faces are posted on enough sites .. you need only have provided the link, there is no need to continue this careless and ignorant violation of PERSEC.
To get back on topic, the photos in question, thanks to the media elites - will deliver a blow to SOF operations, however, I do not see this causing a lasting problem with the rapport already built between various SOF units and Iraqis. They will continue to garner trust, collect intelligence, work with the indigs, and make positive contacts.
Yeah, poor SOF... What a blow...
It is interesting how you dismiss these pictures as violation of security, while sparing not a single thought on their content.
Was Abu Ghraib a big media show as well?
I personally hope the "media elites" will dig even deeper and will display their findings without any censorship and with all due consequence.
edit: false tag
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
A picture is worth a thousand words, and it also tells a million different stories. You need to know the context behind the photo
Precisely. So I hope it will be investigated in detail by objective eyes...
Some feel this isn't done (including myself of course :lol
. Take a look at this weird procedure:
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=1259
RnderSafe
Active member
Bratwurst said:
I have dismissed nothing. In fact, if you had actually read what I've written, you will see I'm refraining from passing judgment on the photos until I have all of the facts. Something you are not doing, yet, you cry for an objective investigation. Hypocrisy is a funny little thing.
What does that have to do with this discussion? Nothing, and I can think of no reason why you brought it up.
:lol: I cannot even comment on this statement. Unless of course, you really do feel the media should be the convening authority over soldiers lives. By your comment .. who needs courts and investigations, simply let the media decide who is guilty and who isn't! That's a great idea!
Of course you don't, because you, yourself are biased and not objective. You feel this isn't being done, yet, you have no idea as to what is being done.
This comment shows how little you understand of the bigger picture, regardless of this particular team's guilt or innocence .. operations still have to be carried out - lives are still at risk, on both sides. The way you casually you dismiss this shows your complete lack of understanding as well as juvenile pettiness.
I never said I knew it all. I was making a comment on how the photo was perceived. Seeing as how it can obviously be perceived in a negative light and it has warranted an investigation then others must have seen it the same way I have. If I was wrong then an investigation done by those who understand the circumstances of the situation would correct me.
I've said before that most of the photos there were very professional looking, but you have to see it from the other point of view. There must have been hundreds of pictures taken and we haven't seen nearly all of them. That can be interpreted in two ways, either the rest of the photos really are intel photos and professionally done, or they could show scenes in which the operators look like they are behaving unprofessionally.
I've said before that most of the photos there were very professional looking, but you have to see it from the other point of view. There must have been hundreds of pictures taken and we haven't seen nearly all of them. That can be interpreted in two ways, either the rest of the photos really are intel photos and professionally done, or they could show scenes in which the operators look like they are behaving unprofessionally.