Potential Leftist Dictator Overthrown

I am on the fence on this, basically I am against the coup only because it is not for the military to change the head of state when they are in disagreement. In general, when the Army interfers in politics its usually to install one of its unelected own in its place, and in general Soldiers make lousy heads of state. If you look at the worst dictators, with the exception of a few like Stalin, they all come from military or paramilitary organizations. Military coups almost always mean the end of democracy in a nation.

The duly-elected President of Honduras has every right to fire the Head of the Army for any reason (which is why they launched the coup) and he is even allowed to push for a modification of the constitution to allow for him to run again. I grant you hes serving his own personal interest but their isnt anything illegal about it.

The point is the people of Honduras made their choice, if they want a ultra-left socialist in power that is entirely their choice. The only way to change it is at the Ballotbox.
 
mmarsh said:
I am on the fence on this, basically I am against the coup only because it is not for the military to change the head of state when they are in disagreement. In general, when the Army interfers in politics its usually to install one of its unelected own in its place, and in general Soldiers make lousy heads of state. If you look at the worst dictators, with the exception of a few like Stalin, they all come from military or paramilitary organizations. Military coups almost always mean the end of democracy in a nation.

The duly-elected President of Honduras has every right to fire the Head of the Army for any reason (which is why they launched the coup) and he is even allowed to push for a modification of the constitution to allow for him to run again. I grant you hes serving his own personal interest but their isnt anything illegal about it.

The point is the people of Honduras made their choice, if they want a ultra-left socialist in power that is entirely their choice. The only way to change it is at the Ballotbox.
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There is nothing to be on the fence about the guy is a democratically elected official in what I can only assume were free and fair elections it is not the responsibility of the military to determine when a term of office is up.

Surprisingly and much to the contrary of popular belief on these forums the military are not the providers of democracy.

He may be the biggest plonker on the face of the planet I don't know and don't care as the only people legitimately able to remove him from office are the nations voters.
 
On the fence in the sense that I am not unhappy to see Zelaya go, just in the method in how he was ousted. And I sincerely hope we were not involved in his removal, I doubt that we were but you never know. We tried to oust Chavez (another one of Bush's trademark SNUFU's) and wound up with Chavez in a far more stronger position than he was before.
 
The courts condemned Zelaya's actions and he wanted to go ahead with it anyways. One way or another, it was likely to become a dictatorship.
I believe in electing leaders through democratic means and updating laws through proper channels. Using a hyped up public to back a move that is not yet considered constitutional (therefore unconstitutional) is not an example of going through proper channels. The public can be all for one thing one moment and all for something else the next. The fact that these things take a long time to change is an advantage. It gives people a lot of time to think about stuff.
Look at our example of intense security. The public was screaming for that sort of stuff back right after 9/11.... they're not so crazy about it anymore. Now they're screaming that it's becoming a police state.
If the military does not cling to power and helps organize another democratic election, it would really save its image. I'm not really counting on them to do it, but I'd rather see a military dicatorship than a Communist dictatorship. The former tends to be more reasonable to deal with than the latter.
 
mmarsh said:
On the fence in the sense that I am not unhappy to see Zelaya go, just in the method in how he was ousted. And I sincerely hope we were not involved in his removal, I doubt that we were but you never know. We tried to oust Chavez (another one of Bush's trademark SNUFU's) and wound up with Chavez in a far more stronger position than he was before.
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Oh.... the USA isn't involved.... Obama supports that Commie of a President.
 
You have to look at the big picture. Chavez and Obama are both against the lawful coup in Honduras. Obama didn't say **** about Ahmanutjob taking office again in a very, VERY shady election with mass protests.

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Now, let's see here...

We have Russia, run by Putin, which is returning to its Soviet expansionist ways, is anti-America, and is selling weapons to Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, China, and North Korea, all of which are countries run by dictators that hate America.

We have China, run by whoever-the-****, which is a communist military regime, is anti-America, has threatened to nuke the US no less than three times, and is building up an army designed specifically to take on the US.

We have North Korea, run by Kim Jong-il, which is a communist military regime, is anti-America, and is threatening to nuke the US, Japan, and South Korea.

We have Cuba, run by Fidel Castro, which is a communist military regime, is anti-America, and is in an agreement with Russia to let the Russkies park bombers armed with nukes on their island.

We have Venezuela, run by Hugo Chavez, which is a socialist regime, is anti-America, has repeatedly invited Obama to join the "international socialist brotherhood", and has threatened military action against the US and its allies.

We have Nicaragua, run by whoever-the-****, which is a socialist regime, is anti-America, and has also repeatedly threatened the US and its allies.

We have Iran, run by Ahmadinejad, which is a islamofascist regime, is anti-America, is attempting to get nuclear weapons, funds and supplies terrorists, and has repeatedly threatened the US and its allies.

We have Saudi Arabia, run by the Saudi king, which is an islamofascist regime, is anti-America (but perfectly happy to take our money), and funds and supplies terrorists.

We have Syria, run by whoever-the-****, which is an islamofascist regime, is anti-America, funds and supplies terrorists, has also attempted to gain nuclear weapons, and has repeatedly threatened the US and its allies.

Then we have Obama, who is a communist, sat in a black supremacist Nation of Islam church for 20 years, pardons and excuses terrorists, has tried to negotiate with the Russians for a treaty that would massive reduce America's nuclear arsenal, has gotten buddy-buddy with all the America-hating communists, socialists, and islamofascists on the ****ing planet, and is anti-America.

Am I the only one who sees a pattern here?
 
5.56
Am I the only one who sees a pattern here?

The answer is YES.

Because when you baselessly accuse Obama of being a member of...

A) a Radical Islamic Group, (Nation of Islam)
B) a radical Christian group (His Former Baptist Chruch)
C) the communist party (which is intolorant of all religion)

...within the same sentence you begin to sound like those people that predict the Rapture every New Years Eve.

You dont like Obama. We get it, and thats fine as your're entitled to that opinion. But lets try to keep to reality, not wild conspiracies that make absolutely no sense at all.
 
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The difference between the Honduras situation and Iran is as follows:

Iran is a case where a democratic system is in conflict and is on the verge of failing. The institutions are still there but Iran is a very tricky place to be tap dancing around. Pissing off Iran too much can lead to Iran deciding to make things a lot more difficult in Iraq and possibly even Afghanistan where a lot of Iran supported leaders have long fought against the Taliban.

Honduras, though I support the ousting of their President, is an outright coup d'etat and the US, with its line of promoting democracy has an obligation to speak out against it. Personally I think the almost fanatical championing of democracy is a very flawed policy but that's not for me to decide.
 
5.56X45mm said:
Then we have Obama, who is a communist, sat in a black supremacist Nation of Islam church for 20 years, pardons and excuses terrorists, has tried to negotiate with the Russians for a treaty that would massive reduce America's nuclear arsenal, has gotten buddy-buddy with all the America-hating communists, socialists, and islamofascists on the ****ing planet, and is anti-America.

Am I the only one who sees a pattern here?
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Where the hell do you get off saying the President is anti-America? If he was anti-America, he wouldn't be trying to help us out of the shithole GWB put us in, he would be letting us spiral down EVEN FURTHER with another Republican President (John McCain).

Am I the only one who sees the pattern of "anti-America"? Has anyone ever stopped to think maybe most of the countries in the world can't be wrong on one subject? Has anyone ever taken a glance in the mirror here? Perhaps we should take a look at our own country before talking crap about everyone else's, seeing as that's the reason the world thinks we're too full of ourselves.
 
mmarsh said:
The duly-elected President of Honduras has every right to fire the Head of the Army for any reason (which is why they launched the coup) and he is even allowed to push for a modification of the constitution to allow for him to run again. I grant you hes serving his own personal interest but their isnt anything illegal about it.

The point is the people of Honduras made their choice, if they want a ultra-left socialist in power that is entirely their choice. The only way to change it is at the Ballotbox.
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But the General was fired for refusing to help conduct the poll that flew in the face of the Constitution. Now really using the Armed Forces to conduct a poll ...........does that seem kosher???

The Honduran Congress appears none to happy about the attempt to modify the Constitution and wanted the Armed Forces assistance, so the ousted president is hardly blameless in this matter and isn't a poor picked on doer of good. He didn't think it out and it bit him.

Yeay the people should make the choice, but El Presidente was going to use the military to conduct a poll and everybody balked. So let them figure it out.

POTUS can piss and moan all he wants as can the EU, UN, Hugo, Castro Ortega and the rest. But it's a Honduran problem and a Coup in Latin America is hardly a new thing.

Chavez and his buddies could care less that Zelaya got exiled to Coasta Rica and removed from office. Their beef is that it sets a presedence that their own people might take notice of, and it doesn't give them a warm fuzzy feeling.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
The difference between the Honduras situation and Iran is as follows:

Iran is a case where a democratic system is in conflict and is on the verge of failing. The institutions are still there but Iran is a very tricky place to be tap dancing around. Pissing off Iran too much can lead to Iran deciding to make things a lot more difficult in Iraq and possibly even Afghanistan where a lot of Iran supported leaders have long fought against the Taliban.
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Iran a democracy?:lol::lol:
Any belief that Iran is a democracy died along with the protest over the last election. Now back page news, and now on to Honduras the current front page.

the_13th_redneck said:
Honduras, though I support the ousting of their President, is an outright coup d'etat and the US, with its line of promoting democracy has an obligation to speak out against it. Personally I think the almost fanatical championing of democracy is a very flawed policy but that's not for me to decide.
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Not really sure you think at all.
What other form of government would you think a Democracy would champion?

The US is not yet calling this a coup.
 
03USMC said:
But the General was fired for refusing to help conduct the poll that flew in the face of the Constitution. Now really using the Armed Forces to conduct a poll ...........does that seem kosher???

The Honduran Congress appears none to happy about the attempt to modify the Constitution and wanted the Armed Forces assistance, so the ousted president is hardly blameless in this matter and isn't a poor picked on doer of good. He didn't think it out and it bit him.

Yeay the people should make the choice, but El Presidente was going to use the military to conduct a poll and everybody balked. So let them figure it out.

POTUS can piss and moan all he wants as can the EU, UN, Hugo, Castro Ortega and the rest. But it's a Honduran problem and a Coup in Latin America is hardly a new thing.

Chavez and his buddies could care less that Zelaya got exiled to Coasta Rica and removed from office. Their beef is that it sets a presedence that their own people might take notice of, and it doesn't give them a warm fuzzy feeling.
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So your contention is that if there is ever a constitutional issue or the Army gets asked to do something it doesn't want to do then they should just replace the head of state and start again until they get someone that doesn't cause any problems?

Maybe we have created a new form of government, the Constitutional Dictatorship?
 
First two paragraphs of the US Declaration of Independence

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
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Sometimes overthrowing the government is the right thing to do.... we did it in 1776... with the way American is going we might have to do it again.
 
Oh oh I can play this game, opening sequence to Star Wars...

Episode IV, A NEW HOPE It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet. Pursued by the Empire’s sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy….

You can quote the US constitution all you like but holding a coup because a general doesnt want to take part in a poll or a president wants a second term is pretty tenuous.
 
Probably looking at the wrong Consitution.

Might have to have a copy of the Honduran Constitution.

President Manuel Zelaya was thrown out of the Country by the military.
Did they place the vice President in charge of the Executive Branch.
Is the newly appointed interim president of Honduras, Roberto Micheletti, the vice Presdient?Or did the military appoint him.

If Manuael Zelaya was doing something unconstitutional why wasn't he held and impeachment proceeding started?

None of the news stories seem to address this.
 
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