Potential Leftist Dictator Overthrown

[mmarsh]

Sometimes overthrowing the government is the right thing to do.... we did it in 1776... with the way American is going we might have to do it again.

That is only a very rarely a justified course of action. Most coup d'etat are those of a power hungry thug who convinces a bunch a self-centered weak-minded individuals that things would be better if he were in charge and not some democratically elected President.

 

[Ted]

I think I see a pattern too. The military along with some in the judicial system see trouble ahead when someone is trying to improve things for the less fortunate. The embedded elite isn't none to happy about that and stage a show. A judge, who has a whole lot to loose if the situation alters, says the president is power hungry. He orders some buddies in the miltary, who also have a lot to loose.... land, power, wealth, haciendas, you name it, to apprehend the culprit.... I reckon you still don't get it, but some probably do.

Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm
Sometimes overthrowing the government is the right thing to do.... we did it in 1776... with the way American is going we might have to do it again.

And my second point is; how can you say you back the American democracy and threaten it with a coup because your president got less votes? You do know 5.55 that this too can happen in a democracy? So take it like a grown up and don't threaten it with your guns. You vowed to uphold the law, if my memory serves me correctly, yet you think that undermining it is the proper way of action.... I think the police corps of some of the countries you hate so much, also work along such lines!

 

[A Can of Man]

The news suggests that the Congressional President Roberto Micheletti has become the new head of state.
He is not a military general so in a way it's not a coup d'etat in the traditional sense. The President attempted to break the law and tried to use the military to do it and he got canned. I don't know what sort of position Congressional President is... is it a Vice President equivilent? Sounds like it anyway.
The public I think has been spared from making a very big blunder, the same kind of blunder the Venezuelans have made.
If the government plays this well and restores democracy, this action will be justified.

That's the problem with democracy in poor countries with poor education, people fall for Communists far too easily because they promise the absolute impossible as if they were promising that they could plant trees that would grow gold coins instead of leaves. I know politicians everywhere lie and BS about their promises but Communism is one of the biggest lies ever and pretty much always ends democracy and replaces it with a dictatorship anyway.
Either way democracy in Honduras looked pretty f*cked.

As for the fanatical championing of democracy Chupike, a lot of folks are only too happy to vote for Communist dictators and other folks who want to declare grudge wars on whoever-the-heck-granddaddy-fought-years-ago. Better that they have a dictator that'll at least build their country or at least not completely destroy it. As long as it's not a Communist dictator... or a facist one.

 

[mmarsh]

But the General was fired for refusing to help conduct the poll that flew in the face of the Constitution. Now really using the Armed Forces to conduct a poll ...........does that seem kosher???

The Honduran Congress appears none to happy about the attempt to modify the Constitution and wanted the Armed Forces assistance, so the ousted president is hardly blameless in this matter and isn't a poor picked on doer of good. He didn't think it out and it bit him.

Yeay the people should make the choice, but El Presidente was going to use the military to conduct a poll and everybody balked. So let them figure it out.

POTUS can piss and moan all he wants as can the EU, UN, Hugo, Castro Ortega and the rest. But it's a Honduran problem and a Coup in Latin America is hardly a new thing.

Chavez and his buddies could care less that Zelaya got exiled to Coasta Rica and removed from office. Their beef is that it sets a presedence that their own people might take notice of, and it doesn't give them a warm fuzzy feeling.

I dont disagree, but why didnt the Hondurian Congress simply proceed with a impeachment proceeding. I am no expert on Hondurian law, but most Democracies have provisions that allow for the removal for the head of state in these types of situations. Furthermore Zelaya was extremely unpopular at home, chances were he was going to lose the next election anyway.

What is missing is an explaination from the military as to why Zelaya was removed so quickly and without authorization from Parlament or the public.

I think what has got everyones stomach turning is that it was the military that ousted him. Even if the military did it with the best of intentions their is a certain smell of despotism in such an action. And Hondurias has a history of military coups. I think nobody is really sorry to see Zelaya go, they are upset in the way it was done.

 

[A Can of Man]

I think nobody is really sorry to see Zelaya go, they are upset in the way it was done.

Which is why I think that ultimately what comes after the military intervention against Zelaya will determine whether they were right to do so.
Zelaya, by trying to pull off what Chavez did in Venezuela was pretty much threatening Honduras' democracy. Maybe that's what got everyone nervous and ready to send him away.
They actually sent him away. That's a huge improvement over having him and his family found riddled with bullets in the basement of their palace.

 

[5.56X45mm]

What you aren't being told on the evening news (or by the White House).

I think Obama is worried about the example being set here. A president does things that are unconstitutional and is ousted by the Supreme Court and military. Hmm...

From www.boortz.com:


Tuesday, June 30, 2009

OBAMA MORE THAN 'CONCERNED'
By
Neal Boortz
@ June 30, 2009 8:11 AM

North Korea launches a missile and it takes Barack Obama and the UN five days to respond. Iran holds fraudulent elections, kills protesters and it takes weeks before Barack Obama can stand up and say that he is "concerned" about the situation.

Then the people of Honduras try to uphold their constitution and laws of the land from being trampled by a Chavez-wanna be ... and it takes Barack Obama one day to proclaim that this was not a legal coup.
Why the sudden decisiveness? Where were these strong opinions on foreign matters when Iranian authorities were trampling protestors and cutting off media access to the outside world? Where was this decisiveness when Kim Jong Ill decided that he was going to launch missiles toward Hawaii on the Fourth of July? Why ... NOW ... is Obama suddenly speaking out loudly

How about a little background. Are you really sure you know what has been going on in Honduras? Do you think that this was simply a coup? Let me give you a rough outline here, and then you can sit back and wonder just why PrezBO is in the weeds with Chavez and Castro on this one.

Mel Zelaya is, or was, the President of Honduras. He and Hugo Chaves were tight. So tight, it seems, that Zelaya wanted to emulate Hugo by changing the Honduran constitution to allow him to run for office until he durned well gets tired of it.

To change the constitution in Honduras you have to convene a constituent assembly. The president cannot do that. The Honduran congress must approve a national referendum calling for the constituent assembly to consider changes to the constitution. Zelaya didn't like the part about the constitution requiring approval of the congress before a national referendum could be called. So ... he decided to call one on his own.

OK .. so here we have President Zelaya calling for a national referendum when he doesn't have the power to do so. The next problem is obtaining ballots! Since the Honduran congress had not called for the referendum, as required by the constitution, the government certainly wasn't going to print the ballots! After all, how smart would it be to print ballots for an illegal referendum? So ... Zelaya had to get the ballots printed elsewhere. Here's an idea! Get his pall Hugo Chavez to print them! Yes! That will work!

So Chaves prints Zelaya's ballots and they're shipped to Honduras. Enter the Honduran Supreme Court. The court considers Zelaya's election in light of the requirements of the Honduran constitution, and rules the referendum illegal and unconstitutional. The court then issues an order to the Honduran military telling them not to do the logistical work associated with Zelaya's phony referendum. Remember, now ... all of this has one primary goal. To get rid of the term limits limiting Zelaya's rule in Honduras.

After the supreme court's decision, General Romeo Velasquez tells President Zelaya that he is subject to a proper order from the Supreme Court and will not be able to carry out Zelaya's referendum. So ... Zelaya fires him. The Supreme Court orders Zelaya to reinstate Velasquez, and Zelaya refuses to do so.

At this point Zelaya's ego is getting the better of him. If the military won't run his illegal referendum, he'll just do it himself. He gins up a mob and leads them to the military compound where Hugo's ballots are stored and then has his supporters begin distributing the ballots to the masses.

Based on the Supreme Court's ruling the Honduran attorney general said that the proposed referendum was illegal and said that he would arrest anyone attempting to carry out the election. Zelaya was arrested by the military and was escorted out of the country.

Now ... does this sound like a military coup-de-etat to you? The attorney general and the military were operating in accordance with the Honduran rule of law. They acted under a valid court order. Coup? The Honduran congress has convened and designated a successor president, all in accordance with the Honduran Constitution. Military coup? The presidential elections set for November .. the election that Zelaya was trying to get around ... will go on as scheduled. A blow for democracy?

Fidel Castro, Daniel Noriega, Hugo Chavez ... all on the side of Zelaya. But Obama? Obama fighting against the rule of law and for a wannabe dictator? What gives?

You have Representative José Serrano (D)NY introduced H.J. Res. 5andwanting to remove the 22nd Amendment from the US Constitution. According to Representative José Serrano (D)NY track record and his own admission. He wants to allow Obama to run for as long as possible and he's also a extreme left wing democrat of marxist leanings.

But nope..... I'm just some crazy right wing nut job that pissed because a quasi democrat in republican clothing didn't get elected. Remember..... McCain wasn't my first choice..... he was the lesser of two evils.

 

[5.56X45mm]

So far, the most creative Dem-spin I've heard on this subject comes from NPR's Mara Liasson: Obama denounced the "coup" to avoid any suspicion in Latin America that the U.S. may have been involved in it.

So he won't denounce the killing in Iran for fear of looking like we were involved in the protests.
But he will denounce Hondorus for fear of looking like we were involved.


okay

 

[03USMC]

Everyone is looking at this from a very western/european/american view. Try looking at from a Latin American POV.

A leader usurping power in order to stay in office in Latin America is not just the theory of "right wing neo-con's, or left wing nut-bags" or whatever. It is a very real reality especially in Central America. Recent history in the region bears this out. Somoza, Oretega (the first episoide), Noriega, and Torrijo's, etc. etc. Honduras itself spent ten years under a military dictatorship before returning to a democratically elected goverment. So the notion that the goverment could be toppled by one man was probably also a memory of many judges, congressmen, etc.

Honduras wrote it's constitution of 1982 with several safe guards against this.

1. Term limits.

2. The Congress appoints the the Commander of the Hounduran Military for a term of three years. Not the President. And while the President retains the title or General and Chief and most of his orders must be obeyed. He still can not fire the general without congressional approval.


While to us this may seem like much ado about nothing. To them it's very real and very much a threat. Latin American politics move much faster than ours. Mabe they understand what happens when they wait.

As far as the president being legally elected. Yeah so is their congress, and they have oversight of everything.

 

[MontyB]

Which is why I think that ultimately what comes after the military intervention against Zelaya will determine whether they were right to do so.
Zelaya, by trying to pull off what Chavez did in Venezuela was pretty much threatening Honduras' democracy. Maybe that's what got everyone nervous and ready to send him away.
They actually sent him away. That's a huge improvement over having him and his family found riddled with bullets in the basement of their palace.

The problem is that democracy in these countries will never genuine or become enshrined as a way of life as long as they are not allowed to run their course.

In the end it just shows that the power in Honduras lies with a few pro-military types which makes it little more than another banana republic, if a political system can not withstand its own internal trials and tribulations without calling out the army then it really isn't a functioning system.

 

[03USMC]

In the end it just shows that the power in Honduras lies with a few pro-military types which makes it little more than another banana republic, if a political system can not withstand its own internal trials and tribulations without calling out the army then it really isn't a functioning system.

No. The Constitution is written in Honduras to give the the National Congress oversite on the military. You are not taking in to account the fact that both the Supreme Court of Honduras and the National Congress of Honduras the Ministers of Goverment and the Attorney General had already judged that Zelaya's actions were unconstitutional and requested/ordered the military to act.

The Military was ordered not to particapte in the "poll" by the the Attorney General. The Commander of the Armed Forces complied with a legal order and was "fired" by Zelaya despite the fact that his appointment comes from the National Congress. The Military was then able to act in accordance with the wishes of a legally elected congress to remove a president who in the majority opinion and the legal opinion of the attorney general and the Supreme Court was illegaly attempting to circumvent the Constitution.

Painting this as a General overthrowing a legally elected Goverment ala Manuel Norriega/Omar Terrijo or the many others that have done this in Latin American History is off the mark.

 

[mmarsh]

No. The Constitution is written in Honduras to give the the National Congress oversite on the military. You are not taking in to account the fact that both the Supreme Court of Honduras and the National Congress of Honduras the Ministers of Goverment and the Attorney General had already judged that Zelaya's actions were unconstitutional and requested/ordered the military to act.

The Military was ordered not to particapte in the "poll" by the the Attorney General. The Commander of the Armed Forces complied with a legal order and was "fired" by Zelaya despite the fact that his appointment comes from the National Congress. The Military was then able to act in accordance with the wishes of a legally elected congress to remove a president who in the majority opinion and the legal opinion of the attorney general and the Supreme Court was illegaly attempting to circumvent the Constitution.

Painting this as a General overthrowing a legally elected Goverment ala Manuel Norriega/Omar Terrijo or the many others that have done this in Latin American History is off the mark.

But then Zelaya firing of the General is meaningless isnt it? It has no legal authority and no teeth to be enforced. If that is so it takes me back to my earlier point: The fact that I still dont understand why the general simply did say "I am sorry sir, but you lack the legal authority to sack me, only a act from Parlament can remove me from office." And leave it at that. I still fail to see the urgency that he be immediatly removed from office without letting the legal process (impeachment or the expiration of his term) takes it course.

The reason I worry is that I remember what happened in Pakistan. The sequence of events that put Musharaff in power for 10 years are not too different from this situation.

 

[A Can of Man]

But like I said, the sitting head of government is not a General and for now it doesn't appear any General is in charge of the country officially or unofficially.
I think when Zelaya tried to fire the General, he had already lost his credibility with the rest of the government.
Democracy is one thing, but if a government has a security system that prevents the destruction of the country as an option, is that a bad thing?

Zelaya's action were a mirror image to that of Chavez, which would no doubt destroy the democratic system.
Speaking of which, if the German military rose up against Hitler and overthrew him once it became clear that he was becoming a dictator, would that make them villains or heroes? Consider that. A coup could have prevented the Second World War, could have prevented the wholesale slaughter of people in numbers we can't even imagine.
Although I don't think Zelaya will go about conducting a blood bath of that scale, if he destroyed the democracy of Honduras and implemented Communism that would destroy what's left of the country, would it have been worth it to sit about and do nothing in the name of democracy?

 

[03USMC]

The fact that I still don't understand why the general simply did say "I am sorry sir, but you lack the legal authority to sack me, only a act from Parliament can remove me from office." And leave it at that. I still fail to see the urgency that he be immediately removed from office without letting the legal process (impeachment or the expiration of his term) takes it course.

He did tell Zelaya that. Zelaya tried to remove him for. He then reported it to the National Congress. That's what got the ball rolling and lead to the ousting. It wasn't the General off on his own hook. It was civilian elected officials that decided Zelaya posed a threat and conducted thru the military his removal and exile.

As 5.56 has said the media in the US and Europe is not reporting the whole story. If you happen to speak Spanish I'd suggest some of the Latin American news reports, they are giving a much broader picture of what happened.

 

[A Can of Man]

03, I think you should tell us what some of these Spanish language press are saying.

 

[03USMC]

Basically it seems to have shook out like this.

1. Zelaya put a resolution before the national congress that would allow him to form a panel / committee to revise the constitution and get rid of term limits. The resolution was voted down by the congress.

2. Zelaya decided to conduct a poll of the people to see if there was enough popuar support for changing the constitution. Not illegal in and of itself apparently but a grey area. This is not what got him.

3. What got him was the fact that he attempted to use the military for in his word "logistic support" for the poll. Meaning distribution of ballots etc. The otherside says that he planned use the military to actually man the polls. This sets alarm bells in the supreme court, congress, and the military.

4. Zelaya orders Gen. Romeo Vasquez to help conduct the poll. Vasquez contacts the attorney general and the congressional committee to verify the legality of the order.

5. Upon consultation with the attorney general and congress Vasquez refuses to conduct the poll. Vasquez fired.

6. Zelaya is informed by the attorney general that his poll does not meet constitutional or legal requistes and advised that conducting the poll will be illegal.

7. Zelaya says he will conduct the poll despite warnings from congress and the attorney general. Congress requests Zelaya resign. Zelaya refuses.

8. Zeleya is removed from office by a military force and exiled to Costa Rica. This action is approved by congress and the attorney general and conducted at their request. Zelaya advised return to the country will result in treason charges.

9. First hue and cry from Chavez sets off the rest of the condemnation.

10. Roberto Michaletto appointed president until the end of the current term by congress. Democratic elections to be conducted in November 2009.


It's not a military coup it's the removal of a president by legally elected and appointed officals, for his testing the limits he could go and attempting to circumvent his constitutional powers.

 

[A Can of Man]

I don't think it is a military coup.
No General is in charge of the government in any capacity.

And Mmarsh, Zelaya fired the General for refusing to follow an illegal order. You cannot be punished legally for refusing to follow an illegal order.

 

[03USMC]

Here's the thing. The US and European media have painted this a typical Latin American Coup. It's also being painted that way on Venezuelan, Ecuadorian, and Nicaruaguan media as well as Bolivan. Other less effected (on the political side) countries are giving this a much more balanced view, Mexico, Columbia, Peru and Chile and the Dominican programs and articles I've seen are much more balanced.

The reason is two fold in IMHO. US & European outlets are bound by a sensationalism for one and penchant for siding with theUN and (in the case of the US) Obama. And they have no need to investigate because in the long and short it doesn't matter. They won't tell you that the "Coup" was conducted under the command of high ranking officers and a small security detachment, it's better far better for them to conjure up images of a storming bloody raid on the Presidental Palace. They won't tell you the why's because it doesn't fit the agenda.

The others in Latin America .....well their just scared.

 

[A Can of Man]

Depending on what happens in November, the rest of the world may owe Honduras a huge apology.

 

[03USMC]

I really respect the guts that that the Honduran National Congress and Ministery of Justice displayed and are currently displaying in the face of all this. They defended their country IMHO and are taken it on the chin.

 

[A Can of Man]

Definitely.
They did the right thing.