Police Brutality

mmarsh

mmarsh

Active member
I know we have some LEO here in the community and this isn't a slam against them or even against most police officers in general. But it just seems to me that with the invention of the camera-phone we are seeing more and more cases of Police Brutality, or at least we are getting a better glispse at the tactics of those that are supposed to "protect" us.

I used to think that some people (Mainly Minorities) were just whining about the fact that they get "harassed" by the police, but there was an incident last year in NYC that began to really start to question what goes on. That plus the BART shooting in SF, both of which were caught on camera.

The case in particular in NYPD has me steamed because the Cop in question not only committed an assault he then wrote a a totally BOGUS police report about how the cyclist tried to run him over (not realizing he had been caught on camera, and that the video was on the internet). If you watch the video its clear the cyclist tries to swirve in order to avoid the cop and gets bodychecked for his trouble. The cop is now up on charges for both the assault and the bogus report.

My question is this: What would have the cops done if this incident hadn't been taped? That cop was not alone, you see his partner about 2 feet behind him. And Secondly How long has this sort of thing been going on? I am afraid to say that if this sort of thing hadn't been taped the real victim would be sitting in jail.

The BART shooting as well, if he hadn't shot that suspect in front of a crowd, while being filmed, do you really think the cop would have been charged? Or would have it been written in some report as a justifiable shooting and buried?

Now the victim belonged to a group called "Critical Mass" which is a loud obnoxious group of cyclists that wants greater rights for Bikers in the city. They have had scuffles with the NYPD before and are highly annoying, but not criminal.

This film is the incident in NY. If this BS goes on in front of tourists on 42nd street and Times Square, what the heck goes on in Harlem or the South Bronx?
 
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Watched the video several times and noted the following;
The officer had stared toward the sidewalk before the rider comes into view.
The officer did not raise his hands to push the cyclist.
The cyclist made no attempt to avoid the policeman or stop.
You can see the cyclist lower his body from his riding position and lean toward the officer just be for hitting him.
Pedestrians to have the right of way over cyclists and from the time the officer started to wards the curb and lack of other traffic the cyclist could easily have passed behind him.
There is no indication the cyclist made any attempt to slow down.
From what I saw it is possible the cyclist wanted a confrontation.

By the way this is from March of 2007 not last year.
 
Chukpike said:
Watched the video several times and noted the following;
The officer had stared toward the sidewalk before the rider comes into view.
The officer did not raise his hands to push the cyclist.
Click to expand...
After having watched the clip 4 times. No, he did not, but he did deliberately lunge towards the cyclist with his elbow raised. This was clearly a premeditated assault on the cyclist, and I'm sure that any court in the land would see it the same way.

And before you start on me, I am not a cyclist or in favour of moves by cyclists to take over our roads. I find these rides offensive and the participants are often worse. But in this case you cannot deny the facts as they are quite clearly seen. To me it looked like the cop looked up the road and selected a "target" them waited until he saw which way the cyclist was going to go to avoid him and then he moved at first cautiously then lunged at his target.

I would suggest that the cyclist ducked his head in an effort to minimise damage to himself in the oncoming crash. A perfectly understandable reaction.
The cyclist made no attempt to avoid the policeman or stop.
You can see the cyclist lower his body from his riding position and lean toward the officer just be for hitting him.
Pedestrians to have the right of way over cyclists and from the time the officer started to wards the curb and lack of other traffic the cyclist could easily have passed behind him.
There is no indication the cyclist made any attempt to slow down.
From what I saw it is possible the cyclist wanted a confrontation.

By the way this is from March of 2007 not last year.
Click to expand...
 
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But in this case you cannot deny the facts as they are quite clearly seen. To me it looked like the cop looked up the road and selected a "target" them waited until he saw which way the cyclist was going to go to avoid him and then he moved at first cautiously then lunged at his target
Click to expand...

Yep, it was an ambush. It almsost looks like he had somthing against that particuler guy. Nice tackle but he should keep his "hand to hand" to people who are actually attacking him...
 
Chukpike said:
Watched the video several times and noted the following;
-snip-

- The cyclist made no attempt to avoid the policeman...

- You can see the cyclist lower his body from his riding position and lean toward the officer just be for hitting him.

- ...and from the time the officer started to wards the curb and lack of other traffic the cyclist could easily have passed behind him.

-snip-

- From what I saw it is possible the cyclist wanted a confrontation.

-snip-
Click to expand...

I guess you meant this as a joke, but: Maybe you might want to think about adding a [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tag to such stuff so that some naive people who not have had training for detecting ironing wont take it as a serious eye (vid) witness analysis and develop doubts about your analytical capabilities?

Just curious,

Rattler
 
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This is assault on the cyclist. He walked into the path of the oncoming bike and when the cyclist tried to move to avoid him he stepped back in the way and then threw an elbow.
 
I don't think there is enough information to make an informed opinion based on just the video. I ride bikes all the time and do not see any indication that the cyclist tried to stop or avoid the collision. That the police are always right is not a position I take. But to show a 2 year old video without supporting documentation means nothing.

"naive people who not have had training for detecting ironing" quote Rattler
?

Think want you want rattler, but the cyclist never made the slightest attempt to avoid the collision and the right of way belongs to the pedestrian. Even if it is a cop.

As far as mmarsh question:
"And Secondly How long has this sort of thing been going on?"

Since we have had cops. This is just a poor 2 year old example.
 
Chukpike said:
I don't think there is enough information to make an informed opinion based on just the video. I ride bikes all the time and do not see any indication that the cyclist tried to stop or avoid the collision. That the police are always right is not a position I take. But to show a 2 year old video without supporting documentation means nothing.

"naive people who not have had training for detecting ironing" quote Rattler
?

Think want you want rattler, but the cyclist never made the slightest attempt to avoid the collision and the right of way belongs to the pedestrian. Even if it is a cop.

As far as mmarsh question:
"And Secondly How long has this sort of thing been going on?"

Since we have had cops. This is just a poor 2 year old example.
Click to expand...

Did you watch the Video? I am curious because it even states right at the beginning that its July 25 2008 -that's 7 months ago.

As for the cyclist making no attempt to avoid the collision? At exactly :24 sec its pretty damn clear the bike swerves toward the curb and the cop lunges at him in order to hit him
 
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The worst is the tasers....

Funny how only a few countries in the world actually allow the use of tasers...

Regardless of the intention of an officer a taser is much to much a consequence free use of force (speaking in terms of subconscious)

Check out this Amnesty international page on Taser Abuse in the US
http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/taser-abuse/page.do?id=1021202

"Since June 2001, more than 334 individuals in the United States have died after being shocked by police Tasers." ~From above link

Google/youtube police taser abuse
 
I actually used the video this week in a class, as a "What you Don't Do" aid.

The Officer PO Patrick Pogan was suspended after the incident and stripped of his shield and gun pending the outcome of an IAB investigation. He has since been charged with assault and the false report and is awaiting trial.

Pogan was a 22 year old rookie. IMO it has alot to do with the lowering of hiring standards in order to fill vacancies. NYPD can't hold on to people and the salary for rookies sucks, so some bad apples will get in the barrel.

He was out of line he got caught. Had it not been on video, I still believe that an IAB investigation would have turned it over to the DA.


The BART shooting is another kettle of fish. There is a theory that Mehserle mistook his gun for his TASER and was attempting to TASE Grant but that due to positioning of both the gun and taser drew the gun.There is also a theory that Mehserle felt what he believed to be a weapon and drew his service weapon and then had a negligent discharge.

I don't believe however that Mehserle killed Grant with malice of fore thought. I believe that something went terribly wrong due to stress or whatever and Grant was killed. It was an unfortunate incident that left one dead and one charged with murder. But since a gag order is or was in place it's still murkey has to what happened.
 
USMC03

I am not questioning your integrity, but can you honestly tell us that IAB (assuming IAB got involved) would have passed this case to the DA without the video? There is something in NYC called the "Blue Wall of Silence", granted its not as bad as it once was (like the 1970s) but we (the citizenry) get the distinct impression cover ups still go on. In other words you have got to be as dumb as this guy was to get filmed in broad daylight on a busy street for anything serious to happen to you. Otherwise its just the cops word vs. the victims. And I think we know whom a Grand Jury is likely to believe, in a he said she said situation.

What worries me is not that a bad apple got in the force, but how much of this sh** goes on when the cameras are off. Was this an isolated incident? Or was this an accidental glimpse of what happens in poorer (more crime-ridden) neighborhoods where there is less video cameras around? I'd like to think the former, but I have some doubts. Minorities have long complained about being harassed by the police.

Another thing. Pogan was that he was a 3rd generation cop. His Dad is a senior detective, and part of the Joint terrorisism Task Force. You'd have thought this guy would have known better, or would have been instructed better. But his dad made this comment (albeit before seeing the video)

"He's my son. I'm proud of him. He's third-generation that's been serving the city," said Pogan Sr., who was at home in Massapequa Park, LI, today and said he had not seen the video. "These people are taking over the streets and impeding the flow of traffic. Then you gotta do what you gotta do," said Pogan, 51.

I get bothered by the "Do what you got to do" statement, (for a traffic violation?) that seems to suggest nothing is out of bounds. That's exactly what worries me, that some people (not all or even most) think a badge is a license to do whatever they like.

I can almost accept the fact that the BART shooting was an accident. Just after Mehserle shot Grant he looks straight up at the camera with a look of disbelief, not the look of a cold faced killer. The trouble was Mehserle's total lack of cooperation (he refused to give a statement, even with a lawyer and a union rep) and the fact he fled to another state. Another problem is the long History of Police Brutality associated in California. Could it have been an accident: YES, but boy does that state seem to have a lot of problems.

Again I am not picking on you, but I would be interested in your thoughts.
 
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With all those witness's even without video he'd be hammered I truly believe that. It was a slam dunk anyway it was investigated.

Are there cases that get swept under the rug? Sure. But thats because it's aided and abetted by administration and has become cultural within that agency.

Both agencies I have worked for all that is needed is an allegation for an IAB investigation. And allegations of harrasment and brutality are legion. Some are founded. Some are, the great majority are unfounded. Criminals like to make the allegation in the hopes that the charges will be dropped, or they can file a lawsuit and get a payday. I've talked to IAB my fair share when allegations were made. One guy said I repeatedly tased him ......our dept hadn't even bought tasers yet. See where I'm going?

In the two cases that you've mentioned, one the Pogan case is cut and dried. It's assault, false report and I would add breach of public trust and possibly misconduct under color of law by a public servant. He deserves what he gets.

That his father is a Det 1st doesn't make junior a good cop. The "Ya do what ya got do" statement is true enough in certain situations, Pogan was not involved in one of those situations. Impeding traffic flow is generally not a use of force situation (there are of course expections like a combative drunk etc)

Some cops think that a badge is a license some think it's something that grants them special privileges and special consideration. But every profession has bad apples and generally they get weeded out.

As far as Mehserle. He did not give a statement under advice of his attorney, he then resigned. Had he not resigned he would have been compelled under Dept policy to provide a statement.

He left the state due to fears of retribution from certain elements of the community. He left with permission of the Dept. and the DA. The Dept. and the DA the Dept and the DA were aware of his location and he was never unavailable. He waited for the warrant to be sworn and then surrendered.

His parents who did not leave the area were harrassed.

Donkey said:
The worst is the tasers....

Funny how only a few countries in the world actually allow the use of tasers...

Regardless of the intention of an officer a taser is much to much a consequence free use of force (speaking in terms of subconscious)

Check out this Amnesty international page on Taser Abuse in the US
http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/taser-abuse/page.do?id=1021202

"Since June 2001, more than 334 individuals in the United States have died after being shocked by police Tasers." ~From above link

Google/youtube police taser abuse
Click to expand...


The vast majority of those deaths have been according to the postmortums the result of substances abuse or preexsisting medical conditions aggravated by substance abuse and application of the TASER. The TASER was not the sole cause of death. Others have been from deploying the TASER against a subject such as on a building ledge or bridge, actual cause of death - fall, brought on by bad tactics.

The TASER and the way it operates have not been the sole cause of death. As a TASER instructor I've been tased more times than I care to remember and don't have any ill effects.

When it comes time to deploy TASER you generally don't have time to check medical records, take vitals and get a history. The situation has escalated beyond that.

I will say this. Since TASER become standard and accepted I have seen at least four cases that were brought to a close with the subject alive and taken into custody, that would have resulted in a use of deadly force prior to TASER becoming standard.
 
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03USMC

While anything can be argued both ways I simply say that it is an item that could be vary easily misused and it has been as many if not more times than not.

I thought the world went through world wars especially the second one to remove and avoid a governmental body that would use such practices. Let's face it the USA is a police/prison nation with 1 and 10 adults incarcerated. This does not bode well for a "free society" now does it.

Sure everyone says well obey the law and you have nothing to worry about, yet was it not the founding fathers of the USA that committed treason?

You maybe asking what this all has to do with police brutality, well when you have devices that can be used with out any repercussions and no sign of injury, albeit in the case of death, things can get out of hand. And topple that with a country that is obsessed with solving problems by making things illegal you are beginning to have a recipe for a very bad meal.

The thing I find most disturbing is, can be seen in countless videos, when a subject is being TASED and at the same time issued commands. When they are unable to cooperate with the commands it results in them thus TASED again. That is a vicious cycle and I can see it happening very easily when the individual using the TASER is rocking on adrenalin, whether they mean to or not.
 
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I would think TASERS reduce police shootings...I mean, If someone attacks me with a cold weapon and I dont have a TASER, I shoot to kill. If I do have a TASER, I have a choice. Just my thoughts, I have never even seen one exept on the TV(Israeli police carry batts. They do leave a sign but are more cost effective).
 
SHERMAN said:
I would think TASERS reduce police shootings...I mean, If someone attacks me with a cold weapon and I dont have a TASER, I shoot to kill. If I do have a TASER, I have a choice. Just my thoughts, I have never even seen one exept on the TV(Israeli police carry batts. They do leave a sign but are more cost effective).
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For hundreds of years we got by with this device called a billy club......modern night stick or whatever mil designation, what you cal a bat....see this device had consequence and evidential proof it might have been used in abuse (much like you said but not sure if you meant).....
 
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For hundreds of years we got by with this device called a billy club......modern night stick or whatever mil designation, what you cal a bat....see this device had consequence and evidential proof it might have been used in abuse (much like you said but not sure if you meant).....
Click to expand...

I did infact mean that. However when someone attacks you with a knife a club/night stick/bat is the weapon for very proffesional and experienced hands. The sad fact is that most Police agencies barely have the time and resources to teach their officers proffesional use of their firearm, let alone the hand to hand skills that assure winning such an encounter.

But yeah, I get what your saying.
 
There is good and bad in any profession. I think the most we can do is monitor what is going on and hope that we weed out the bad as quickly as possible.
 
Donkey said:
For hundreds of years we got by with this device called a billy club......modern night stick or whatever mil designation, what you cal a bat....see this device had consequence and evidential proof it might have been used in abuse (much like you said but not sure if you meant).....
Click to expand...

Hand-held impact weapons have some advantages over newer less lethal weapons. Batons are less expensive than Tasers to buy or to use, and carry none of the risk of cross-contamination of OC aerosol canisters (pepper spray) in confined areas. Tasers and OC canisters have limited ammunition, whereas batons do not.
Batons are higher on the use of force continuum than many other less-lethal weapons, as they are more likely to cause lasting or fatal injuries. Like Tasers and OC, batons are referred to as "less-lethal" rather than "non-lethal". These items are not designed to be fatal and almost never are, but it does happen: allergic reaction to pepper spray, blood clots from baton strikes, and head injuries from falling after being shocked by a Taser.

Because of advances in science OC cannisters and Tasers have become available. They were developed as alternatives to batons and are considered less likely to be lethal than batons.
 
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