Pilots say new U.S. stealth fighter has no equal

phoenix80

Banned
TYNDALL AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. - The Air Force's new F-22A Raptor is such a dominant fighter jet that in mock dogfights its pilots typically take on six F-15 Eagles at once.

Despite the favorable odds, the F-15s, still one of the world's most capable fighters, are no contest for the fastest radar-evading stealth jet ever built.

"The F-15 pilots, they are the world's best pilots," said Lt. Col. David Krumm, an F-22A instructor pilot. "When you take them flying against anyone else in the world, they are going to wipe the floor with them. It's a startling moment for them to come down here and get waylaid."
The F-22A officially became ready for combat this month with a squadron of 12 Raptors on standby for worldwide deployment at Langley Air Force Base, Va.

Those who know the Raptor best say it represents a major leap in U.S. warfighting abilities. At this Florida Panhandle base, where all Raptor pilots are trained, instructors say the jet's stealth, speed and ability to electronically scan the battlefield from the air are far superior to any other fighter.

"This is what's next," Krumm said. "The stuff that we have is great and it's capable, but this is what's next."

The Raptor, originally designed for air-to-air combat, was expanded to include a ground attack role. Pilots dropped bombs from Raptors for the first time last weekend in training exercises at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada.

One of the challenges is finding pilots for the single-seat Raptors, formerly designated F/A-22 to emphasize its ground attack role. The Air Force looks for experienced pilots with a background in fighters and bomb dropping, said Col. Matthew Molloy.

Raptor pilots are former F-15 pilots who have flown a two-seat version, the F-15E Strike Eagle, and also have ground attack experience. The F-16 Fighting Falcon is the Air Force's only other jet that flies both air-to-air and air-to-ground missions.

Eventually, the Air Force plans to take students straight out of pilot training into the Raptor program, Molloy said.

Critics say the Raptor is too expensive at a time when the U.S. already dominates the skies, and that it was designed for a high-tech enemy that no longer exists - the Soviet Union.

The Air Force puts the Raptor's price tag at $160 million per plane, but outside experts estimate they cost more than $350 million each when research and development expenses are added. So far, the Air Force has 56 Raptors, including training and test fighters, at Tyndall, Langley, Nellis and Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. The current budget plans call for about 180 Raptors, but the Air Force wants more. Tyndall has the largest contingent at 23.

Military leaders say the plane will ensure American air dominance for years to come.

"In any air-to-air fight out there, it is a hopeless mismatch," Krumm said. "What we are more concerned with are countries that want to deny us air space by purchasing surface-to-air missiles and that kind of stuff. Those are very lethal to the way the U.S. deploys."

The Raptor is designed to be especially proficient at taking out such ground-launched missiles because of its speed and stealth. That's something military leaders say could be needed in a fight against potential enemies including Iran or North Korea.

"We want to kick the door down so the air space is clear for any (aircraft) you want to go in," Krumm said. "Someone could come in flying a Cessna 172 with a pistol if you wanted after we're done."

The Raptor's dogfighting capability adds a new dimension to the Air Force's fleet of stealth aircraft. Krumm compared the earlier F-117 Nighthawk and B-2 Spirit to cockroaches.

"They want to sneak in, drop their bombs, and sneak out again. They have absolutely no wish for a fight," he said. "They don't have air-to-air missiles, they cannot maneuver that well or anything else. Our airplane is entirely offensive. Not only am I stealthy, but I'll also hunt you down and kill you if you get in my way."

And then there is the Raptor's super cruise capability that lets it fly at supersonic speed without using fuel-guzzling afterburners as required by other fighters.

"That saves us a lot of gas and opens up a whole host of things when you start talking about dropping bombs," Krumm said. "You can imagine if you are 60,000 feet doing mach 1.9 (about 1,400 mph) and these bombs are flying out of your airplane, the swath of hell you can produce going through a country saying 'I'll take that target, and that target'."
Twelve Raptors will head to Alaska in June for their first routine peacetime exercise deployment.

In the meantime, the instructors at Tyndall's 325th Fighter Wing will continue looking for the Air Force's top pilots to fly the world's best fighter jet.
"Langley rapidly needs pilots and we are trying to produce pilots to keep up with the production of the airplanes," Molloy said.

Krumm said one issue is that the plane is single-seater, which means only the most experienced fighter pilots, capable of flying such a high-tech plane solo, will be selected until the program becomes more routine.
"When you strap on $160 million of taxpayer money, it's by yourself with me nervously flying alongside you going 'Please don't screw up, please don't screw up,'" Krumm said.

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/13458528.htm
 
Hi,

Ya just wait PAK-FA in on the way :pirate2: ;)


Source:Rediff News

India, Russia discussing developing 5th generation fighter



The government Thursday said it was in discussion with Russia for joint develpoment and manufacture of fifth generation fighter aircraft. In a written reply to a question in the Lok Sabha, Union Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said Russia had proposed joint develpoment and manufacture of fifth generation fighter aircraft. "Talks have been held between India and Russia in this regard.

Peace
-=SF_13=-
 
doesn't surprise me that the raptor is such a nice airplane... :) i'm sure it will be the best airplane for years to come.
 
remember that it is still in discussions and under review. By the time it is out, the technology using in JSF or F-22 will be much more advanced than what it is today!

No worries!
 
HI,

Rabs said:
I understood the PAK-FA was going to be a JSF competitor.
From Wikipedia


Sukhoi PAK FA

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

PAK FA is a new Russian fifth generation fighter jet which is being developed by a consortia spearheaded by Sukhoi. It stands for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi which means Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces. It is intended to replace the Mig-29 and Su-27 in Russian service, and is scheduled to have its first flight in 2008, and enter service with the Russian airforce sometime between 2012 and 2015.

History
In the late 1980s, the Soviet Union outlined a need for a next-generation aircraft to replace its Mig-29 and Su-27 in frontline service. Two projects were proposed to meet this need, the Sukhoi Su-47 and the Mikoyan_Project_1.44. In 2002, Sukhoi was chosen to lead the design for the new combat aircraft. The PAK-FA will incorporate technology from the Su-47 and the Mig 1.44.

Specifications
Although there is no reliable information about its specifications yet, it is known from interviews with people in the Russian airforce that it will be stealthy, have the ability to supercruise, be outfitted with the next generation of air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and incorporate an AESA radar. Reports indicate that it will be slightly larger than the Mig-29 but not as large as the Su-27.


The PAK-FA's equivalent in the US will be the F-22 Raptor, which is believed have many similar characteristics to the PAK-FA, including shape.

Line Drawing of PAK - FA
T-50-3view.jpg

Peace
-=SF_13=-
 
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Wow...Russia's following their old tradition of copying everything we do...can anyone say B-29/TU-4? Greeeeeeat...
 
Rabs said:
I always found it cute how there planes look so similar to ours.

And the Russians stole the..... Mig-27? From a Canadian design that was called Aero or something like that.
 
SwordFish_13 said:
Hi,

Ya just wait PAK-FA in on the way :pirate2: ;)

Just because Russia can design it doesn't mean they can afford it. And even if they can afford it, doesn't mean it's going to work, look at the Kursk.
 
Hi,

Whispering Death said:
Just because Russia can design it doesn't mean they can afford it.

That's what we Indians are here For ...... they have the Design we have the $ ......... lets roll ;)


Peace
-=SF_13=-
 
The problem I have with Russian "stuff" is that its much like the soviet union itself. Looks pretty on paper and is pretty darn impressive at first glance, then it turns out to be an utter peice of garbage.
 
Rabs said:
The problem I have with Russian "stuff" is that its much like the soviet union itself. Looks pretty on paper and is pretty darn impressive at first glance, then it turns out to be an utter peice of garbage.
Y'know, I could make a totally derogatory comment based on that, but since I don't feel like getting banned, I won't. :firedevi:

Man, looking at that diagram of the PAK FA worries me -- not so much because of the capabilities, but can you imagine being part of an F-22 flight and getting into the phone booth with a flight of PAK FA's? You better pray that the IFF is working, otherwise you might not be sure if you're shooting a bad guy or a good guy.
 
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I understood the PAK-FA was going to be a JSF competitor.
You are correct. While many people would like the new design to be the competitor of the F-22, the Russian AF has stated several times, the PAK-FA is a competitor of the F-35.

And the Russians stole the..... Mig-27? From a Canadian design that was called Aero or something like that.
Was the "Buran" a copy of the NASA space shuttle or, could it be the solution was the logical answer to similar problems?

Man, looking at that diagram of the PAK FA worries me -- not so much because of the capabilities, but can you imagine being part of an F-22 flight and getting into the phone booth with a flight of PAK FA's? You better pray that the IFF is working, otherwise you might not be sure if you're shooting a bad guy or a good guy.
What makes you think the F-22 is somehow less capable than the new Russian design? People ASSUME that because so much emphasis was placed on BVR that the F-22A is somehow less capable in a knife-fight. The USAF has known for a long time what Russian technology is capable of manufacturing!

A Topic To The Side;
At the beginning of the F-22/F-23 program, the USAF's Air Intelligence, DARPA and, CIA did a study as to assess what the USSR's technical capabilities would be in the time period of 1990 to 2010. The study was based upon the Cold War continuing and it turned out to be very accurate. The specs of the ATF were designed so the F-22 would be superior to anything the USSR could build in this time period. The financial breakdown of the USSR, the need for cash and, them placing some of their best weapon systems on the open market allowed the USA's intelligence services know the accuracies and inaccuracies of that study. The fact that Russia has sold the USAF Su-27's (11/26/95) and MiG.-29's only helps our intelligence community. The Russians have not developed any completely new aircraft since the country went bankrupt. Only modifications of the MiG.-29 or Su-27. So, the USA knows what the Russian are capable of making and will be able to make for many years.
Many other countries know what the Russian Air Force has also. In 1988, the Japanese Diet (the Japanese Parliament or Congress) paid the USSR $300,000 for two JASDF pilots did undergo training to fly the Su-27! Also familiarization and evaluation program in the USSR! Japan wanted to know the capabilities of the Su-27 because it had been causing the Japan Air Defense problems.
 
How about this :

...Of particular interest to the Air Force is the F-22's ability to deal with "double digit SAMs." A double digit SAM, Air Force parlance for Russian-designed mobile surface-to-air missiles, is so named for the two digit designator in their NATO reporting name. The Russian-designed S-300P Angara, for instance, is designated "SA-10" by NATO countries. The "S-300PMU Favorit" is designated the "SA-20." Both Russia and China manufacture these weapons systems, and they are readily available on the market. These weapons are highly mobile and pose a threat to Air Force legacy aircraft such as the F-15 and F-16.

"It's a huge problem in the future if you think about a double digit SAM. A double digit SAM is equivalent to our (phased array tracking intercept of target missiles)," General Lewis said. "As you know, PATRIOTs shot down some of our own friendlies. And the friendlies knew they were being targeted by the PATRIOT. They tried the best they could and they still got shot down. That is the future if there are double digit SAMs in that environment. You have got to go in there and kill them. If you can't kill them, you will be denied air space. That is what we envision."

from : http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123022371

IMO, No Equals = Air Superiority, but with those 2-digits SAMs, it's still questionable :)
 
"In a fight against other airplanes, the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor's stealth capabilities are useless, claims noted fighter designer Pierre Sprey, since the Raptor must radiate to detect the enemy, thus announcing its location to everyone in the vicinity with a Radar Warning Receiver.

Under these circumstances, a Raptor is no better than any late-model fighter such as the Sukhoi Su-27 series, which is considerably cheaper."

All four parts of this article have alot of good info on the back and forth points concerning the F22's performance.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002675.html
 
AVON, I think the point is how the PAK-FA and the F-22 look very much alike, not the performance.
Some women might think I look somewhat like Denzel Washington but, the difference in our paychecks reflect reality! :mrgreen:


"In a fight against other airplanes, the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor's stealth capabilities are useless, claims noted fighter designer Pierre Sprey
Its truly sad when time has passed a man by and he no longer realizes he is out of touch with current technology! To make comments like a T-38 with HMDS / HOBS missile is the equal of an F-22A has turned out to be so wrong.
In one test three F-16Cs with simulated HMDS & HOBS missiles against one F-22A in WVR. The F-22A (as usual) bounced the F-16s shooting down two and was in the process of shooting down the third one when they fired simultaneously, killing each other. Had the F-22A had a HMDS, it would have killed the third F-16C without exposing itself to the F-16's counter-fire.

the Raptor must radiate to detect the enemy, thus announcing its location to everyone in the vicinity with a Radar Warning Receiver.
While the F-22 practices as though it APG-77 can be detected, in reality, there is no RWR currently can detect the APG-77's LPI signal. Not even the Typhoon's RWR!
When the APG-77's radar can be detected, one F-22 can detect the opponent and send information by data-link to another F-22 in another direction that is not broadcasting. So the first thing an opponent would know is when the AMRAAM turns on its terminal guidance radar at its target. Just a few miles left to the target while closing at speeds over Mach two!
 
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