Perimeter defences plan for a military base for the GWOT - Page 4




 
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Boots
 
October 3rd, 2012  
rattler
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tankboy
Is this some kind of x box war game.

No, (though there is something like what you are mentioning out there with the same name but has nothing to do with this TacOps).

TacOps is, let me quote,

Quote:
...the commercial version of “TacOpsCav 4”, an officially issued standard training device of the US Army. It is a simulation of contemporary and near-future tactical, ground, combat between United States (Army and Marine), Canadian, New Zealand/Australian and German forces versus various opposing forces (OPFOR), simulating the Former Soviet Union, China, North Korea etc. Various civilian units and paramilitary forces are also included.

-snip- ... The primary simulation focus of TacOps 4 is ground operations from the perspective of the battalion or regimental commander. You are a commander, not a gunner.

...Unlike the other games, TacOps is first and foremost a military application that has been commercialised. ... TacOps 4 tries in every way possible to recreate the strategic conditions of a warzone, and using it this is ... a learning experience ...


-snip - ... So we’ll get that out of the way first: TacOps 4 is probably not for you. It’s a slow, laborious process to execute the ... scenarios, and if you go in expecting something simply ‘fun,’ you’re probably going to miss out on why this simulator is so rewarding.
Sums it up quite nicely.
And, to make it clear: From my POV best bang for the buck if you are interested in realistic outcomes of set up scenarios.

As for Peters reply, I used the mortars to blast a track throught your minefields, and (a) bomb truck(s) to blast through the barriers then, made it into strike range in the numbers described.


As I said, for the third scenario the mortars were used for supressive fires, and if you run a nice faint your Apaches will be where they cannot impede that. OTOH, do you know the number of rounds and missiles an Apache can fire? Target saturation will take care of that aspect.

Etc., etc., I wont go on discussing this with somebody who obviously does not have a real clue but a firm idea, as I said: Run your scenarios through TO and see where you get.

Rattler
October 3rd, 2012  
hawky94
 
 
Hi Rattler,

I wish I could run this simulation too, as TacOps look like a very cool tool. Unfortunately, my PC's a sh*tbox and doesn't have the balls to run it.

Anyway, in answer to your query about the maximum number of rounds an Apache can fire, according to Jane's Information Group - it is 1200 rounds in the Apache's 30mm, M320 Chain Gun.

The Apache is also armed, according to this website (I don't know how reliable it is): http://www.mechmodels.com/mas/downlo...nual/ah64a.htm with a maximum of 16 Hellfire missiles, and a maximum of 76 Hydra 70 unguided rockets. In addition, it also carries 4 Stinger Air-to-Air missiles.

Hope that answers your question.
October 3rd, 2012  
Peter Dow
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
As for Peters reply, I used the mortars to blast a track throught your minefields, and (a) bomb truck(s) to blast through the barriers then, made it into strike range in the numbers described.

As I said, for the third scenario the mortars were used for supressive fires, and if you run a nice faint your Apaches will be where they cannot impede that. OTOH, do you know the number of rounds and missiles an Apache can fire? Target saturation will take care of that aspect.

Etc., etc., I wont go on discussing this with somebody who obviously does not have a real clue but a firm idea, as I said: Run your scenarios through TO and see where you get.

Rattler
I got TacOps installed and I ran the tutorial. So thanks again for that Rattler. It looks like a powerful tool.

I note that TacOps can save game scenarios in files and I'd like to ask if you would be happy to share the saved files for these scenarios you ran?

To suggest how that might be done here, I have tried to attach one of the TacOps tutorial autosave files to this post. It is a ".tac" file so I needed to put it in a ".zip" folder before uploading it.

I am running windows and what I did was right-click on the saved file then selected "Send To" then from the short-cut menu I selected "Compressed (Zipped) Folder".

That made a new .zip file and I used this posts's "Attach Files" options, clicking on "Manage Attachments" then "Choose File" and selected the .zip file then "Upload" which I think you can see attached the file "AutoSave0020 121003 0349.zip" to this post.

Can you do that for your saved files for any scenarios you have run against my gun towers?

That would help a lot because TacOps is a new program to me and the best way to learn a new program is to learn from somebody who has done it all already.

Maybe that way I would be able to run your scenarios Rattler and check what assumptions you have entered for the towers and attacking and defending forces.

To see the autosave file I attached you need to click the link to download load it to your PC, then simply open the zipped folder to get at the file.
Attached Files
File Type: zip AutoSave0020 121003_0349.zip (2.3 KB, 4 views)
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Boots
October 3rd, 2012  
Peter Dow
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawky94
Hi Rattler,

I wish I could run this simulation too, as TacOps look like a very cool tool. Unfortunately, my PC's a sh*tbox and doesn't have the balls to run it.
So you downloaded the installation file from Rattler's link OK? I'm on windows so my file was "tacops4demo_i_exe".

When I tried to run it first time, it would't install. I got an error message, something about "cannot run this because the windows workstation is going to shut down".

I suspected that was because I had a number of programs running and had hibernated and reawoken my PC a few times in the session.

So I did a "Turn Off Computer", booted it up and TacOps installed with no problems.

What's your issue with trying to install and run TacOps hawky94?
October 3rd, 2012  
rattler
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawky94
Hi Rattler,

I wish I could run this simulation too, as TacOps look like a very cool tool. Unfortunately, my PC's a sh*tbox and doesn't have the balls to run it.
Should not be a prob really AFAIK (I have no deep PC knowledge as I am a MacMan), the program runs on old machines without windoze even (DOS), and it does not need much graphic power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawky94
Anyway, in answer to your query about the maximum number of rounds an Apache can fire, according to Jane's Information Group - it is 1200 rounds in the Apache's 30mm, M320 Chain Gun.

The Apache is also armed, according to this website (I don't know how reliable it is): http://www.mechmodels.com/mas/downlo...nual/ah64a.htm with a maximum of 16 Hellfire missiles, and a maximum of 76 Hydra 70 unguided rockets. In addition, it also carries 4 Stinger Air-to-Air missiles.

Hope that answers your question.
Was not a question (but thanks anyway), your data is correct.

My comment just wanted to point out to Peter that his Apaches wont be able to take out more than a certain number of trucks, mortar teams etc. then they gotta go back to reload, i.e. in a target saturated environment wont be the "cures-it-all" remedie he seems to believe they are.

Rattler
October 3rd, 2012  
rattler
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Dow
I got TacOps installed and I ran the tutorial. So thanks again for that Rattler. It looks like a powerful tool.

I note that TacOps can save game scenarios in files and I'd like to ask if you would be happy to share the saved files for these scenarios you ran?...
AFAIK the demo cannot load saved files created on a Mac, but I did not save them anyway (to run TacOps have to run System 9 on my Mac which I can only do on a very old machine and have no space to store them there). I suggest you use customs scenario US in the demo and set up your sceanarios to your liking.

Rattler
October 3rd, 2012  
Peter Dow
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
AFAIK the demo cannot load saved files created on a Mac, but I did not save them anyway (to run TacOps have to run System 9 on my Mac which I can only do on a very old machine and have no space to store them there).
I'm not really a Mac expert but think there are differences in the way the Mac files organise their data compared to a Windows file.

Still, if I got hold of any of your data files I could have a look, see if I could convert them to a format suitable for input to TacOps on Windows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
I suggest you use customs scenario US in the demo and set up your sceanarios to your liking.

Rattler
The file "Custom Scenario US Army.sce" in the "_Battles/_US" folder?

Was that the scenario ".sce" file you started with to run your towers attack simulation?

OK well I figured out that you need to run that scenario as a two person game, right? Then next it asks me for a terrain map.

The only map I could find was "Map001c.dat" in the "Maps\Map001c" folder.

That's the same map as was used in the tutorial and the same map for all 4 scenarios in the "_US" file included in the demo.

Is that the map you used? The map area is only 15 kilometres by 6 kilometres.

So that map is not big enough to build a whole base. I'd need at least 32 km x 32 km to build a base and that would not leave any room for a Trust Zone around the circumference so maybe 35km x 35km would be ideal.

That one map I have in the demo version is only big enough to build a 15 km x 6 km section.

So what did you do Rattler? Have you got a bigger map data file? Or did you only model a section of the towers, if so, which section?

Do you have the full version of the TacOps then, not just the Demo version? Does it come with a whole load of maps? Would you like to share your map files? I need a big map!

Or is there a way to create your own maps and datafiles?

So you didn't save any of your game play files? You didn't you have autosave on?

You seemed very precise about the results. It read like you had taken notes or something.

I'd like know how you modelled the towers? Did you make a new tower unit? How did you model the tower height? Did you put the tower units on high ground by creating a map?

It's interesting Rattler but I want to extract all the information I can please. Thanks.
October 3rd, 2012  
rattler
 
 
Inserting in red the various answers to your questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Dow
I'm not really a Mac expert but think there are differences in the way the Mac files organise their data compared to a Windows file.

No, .tac files are system independent (else TO would not run cross-platform. The problem lies within the demo version which is not able to load cross platform as the full version is.

Still, if I got hold of any of your data files I could have a look, see if I could convert them to a format suitable for input to TacOps on Windows.

Even if I had them you could not read them they are encrypted
.

The file "Custom Scenario US Army.sce" in the "_Battles/_US" folder?

Yes

Was that the scenario ".sce" file you started with to run your towers attack simulation?

Yes

OK well I figured out that you need to run that scenario as a two person game, right? Then next it asks me for a terrain map.

Correct.

The only map I could find was "Map001c.dat" in the "Maps\Map001c" folder.

Oops, forgot that the demo only had this one map, you would have to build parts of your structure then.

So that map is not big enough to build a whole base. I'd need at least 32 km x 32 km to build a base and that would not leave any room for a Trust Zone around the circumference so maybe 35km x 35km would be ideal.

32x32 is the max map size for TacOps IIRC, anyway its the size I used


That one map I have in the demo version is only big enough to build a 15 km x 6 km section.

Correct

So what did you do Rattler? Have you got a bigger map data file? Or did you only model a section of the towers, if so, which section?

Used a custom 32x32 map I had created some years ago for such purposes

Do you have the full version of the TacOps then, not just the Demo version? Does it come with a whole load of maps? Would you like to share your map files? I need a big map!

I own various copies of the full version, indeed. As MajorH has refrained from imposing any security gimmicks trusting a pay-by-honor mode I will not forward any program or map files, you would have to hit out the 20 or 35$ yourself (MajorH has practically retired since a few yrs from programming and now lives from this income AFAIK)

Or is there a way to create your own maps and datafiles?

Yes, in the retail version


I'd like know how you modelled the towers? Did you make a new tower unit? How did you model the tower height? Did you put the tower units on high ground by creating a map?

The latter, towers as a high ground block with entrenchment protection (in TOs abstraction this would describe an area of 100x100 meters with an elevated entrenchment somewhere within it)

Hope that helps,

Rattler
October 3rd, 2012  
Peter Dow
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
is the max map size for TacOps IIRC, anyway its the size I used
Well modern PCs have loads of memory, enough to handle the data for huge maps, so I can only assume that the max map size for TacOps IIRC is a limitation with the software?

I wonder why MajorH didn't find a buddy to revise his software to handle bigger maps, and maybe release a IIIRC?

Not that I was thinking of buying the full version of TacOps, but 32km x 32km is barely sufficient to represent my plan.

In my plan diagram assuming a 1km diameter Central Base, the diameter of the Warning Line Circle is actually 33km.

For a 5km diameter Central Base, the diameter of the Warning Line circle would be 37km. So you can see I would be bursting out of a 32km x 32km map.

Ideally I would need more map room for bigger Central Bases and for simulation of activity in the wider Trust Zone.

Since you seem to be an expert on these military simulators, can I ask you if someone was looking for a modern combat simulation program that didn't have a maximum limit on the map size imposed but was still very useful in other respects, is there a game or program which you would recommend? I'd be interested in Real Time Strategy as well as Turn-Based Strategy.

If not, never mind, and just tell me some more about TacOps please, to see if I could do something informative with the demo version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
The latter, towers as a high ground block with entrenchment protection (in TOs abstraction this would describe an area of 100x100 meters with an elevated entrenchment somewhere within it)
Well if I simulate a line of towers every 333 metres across the TacOps demo map, some towers will be on high ground, others in low ground, maybe some in woodland.

The function of the towers would to get a good view of the surrounding land but the ideal ground to site a base would be reasonably flat ground to enable all the towers to see well because hilly ground can easily be higher than a 30 metre high tower could possibly see over or into. Hilly ground would be bound to cause blind spots that the towers can't see - that's not ideal.

But if I simulate my towers on the demo map, is there any way to get the towers to see as far as they would if they were on flat clear ground, even if they aren't according to the demo map?

I note that the TacOps User Guide says about entrenchments
"All entrenched units are significantly harder to spot. All entrenched units are significantly harder to hit with direct fire. Entrenched infantry units suffer less personnel casualties when they are hit."
But Towers are significantly easier to spot and anything you can see you can aim at, right? How do you simulate the increased range of sight of towers and increased range where they can be seen by the enemy?

So do you suggest entrenching the infantry units which have an autocannon, a machine gun and a TOW missile?

Are factors like visibility, and armour of entrenched infantry adjustable when creating a user scenario?

Part of the problem here is I'd like to over-ride the demo map and give my towers good vision if one of them happens to be stuck in a place on the map which normally gives poor vision and visibility. Is there any way to do that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
Hope that helps,

Rattler
You've been very helpful actually Rattler! Thanks!
October 4th, 2012  
rattler
 
 
Again inserting answers. Please note, though, that I have the feeling that we are about to be hijacking the thread, so it might be better to open a new thread on TascOps management.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Dow
Well modern PCs have loads of memory, enough to handle the data for huge maps, so I can only assume that the max map size for TacOps IIRC is a limitation with the software?

Yes. TO stems from 1994 and (not speaking for the good Major here, just personal recollection) the philosophy was to make it able to run on any soldiers machine, then. This philosophy was never revised and I dont see a reason to do so neither

I wonder why MajorH didn't find a buddy to revise his software to handle bigger maps, and maybe release a IIIRC?

The scale for which TO is intended as a sim does not ask for such a revision, IMHO. You can run campaigns combining maps (we did).

Not that I was thinking of buying the full version of TacOps, but 32km x 32km is barely sufficient to represent my plan.

Which explains a lot of your problem in simple words: You are out of the tactical scope.

In my plan diagram assuming a 1km diameter Central Base, the diameter of the Warning Line Circle is actually 33km.

For a 5km diameter Central Base, the diameter of the Warning Line circle would be 37km. So you can see I would be bursting out of a 32km x 32km map.

Sic.

Since you seem to be an expert on these military simulators...

I am not, I might be something of a TO expert (I have participated and run a great number CPXes and spent virtually thousands of hours on it, some nice AARs here: http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/tac...g1461/#msg1461 and http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/tac...tanks-cpx-aar/ ), but nothing more.

The oly mils sim expert I know is James Sterrett (he works with Grumman and at CGSC Simulations Division in Kansas), you can contact him through the TacOps mailing list (link to which should be mentioned somewhere in the TO forum on Battlefront): http://www.linkedin.com/pub/james-sterrett/5/719/32a


Well if I simulate a line of towers every 333 metres across the TacOps demo map, some towers will be on high ground, others in low ground, maybe some in woodland.

Correct. The elevation of the towers would not be of importance in your scenario, but LOS yes.

The function of the towers would to get a good view of the surrounding land but the ideal ground to site a base would be reasonably flat ground to enable all the towers to see well because hilly ground can easily be higher than a 30 metre high tower could possibly see over or into. Hilly ground would be bound to cause blind spots that the towers can't see - that's not ideal.

No. You would need a map without blind spots.

But if I simulate my towers on the demo map, is there any way to get the towers to see as far as they would if they were on flat clear ground, even if they aren't according to the demo map?

You can set visibility range (default is 4km, normal aided spotting sight at a clear day) to any value you like (whether this makes sense is another question)

I note that the TacOps User Guide says about entrenchments
"All entrenched units are significantly harder to spot. All entrenched units are significantly harder to hit with direct fire. Entrenched infantry units suffer less personnel casualties when they are hit."
But Towers are significantly easier to spot and anything you can see you can aim at, right? How do you simulate the increased range of sight of towers and increased range where they can be seen by the enemy?

Correct. The towers themselves would be easier to spot, but the arms and personeell mounting them, not (assuming some kind of protection). This would make entrenched the way you should treat these units, on tower or not.

So do you suggest entrenching the infantry units which have an autocannon, a machine gun and a TOW missile?

I used a BTR 80 armed with 30mm cannon (and coax MG) and, IIRC a German Marder with 4 TOW missiles. I did this on purpose to simulate the armor effect of the protection I assumed you would have assigned to the the towers. This, plus entrenchment factors as described by you would make the tower troops part of a fairly "hardened" environment.

Are factors like visibility, and armour of entrenched infantry adjustable when creating a user scenario?

Visibility without, the rest within limits.

Part of the problem here is I'd like to over-ride the demo map and give my towers good vision if one of them happens to be stuck in a place on the map which normally gives poor vision and visibility. Is there any way to do that?

Not in the demo version, you would need a different map.
Rattler
 


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