Perimeter defences plan for a military base for the GWOT - Page 3




 
--
Boots
 
October 1st, 2012  
captiva303
 
 
It is a direct copy of the liberty defence system from the "Resistance" series of games on PS 3. Didn't work then can't imagine it working now.
October 2nd, 2012  
Peter Dow
 
 

Topic: Ah, war game computer simulation. I am cool with that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
Well just for the fun of it and because this is this what I feel an absurd idea I ran your base defense through TACOPS milsim yesterday night, in different scenarios,

...

Try your scenarios out for yourself... :

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php...122&Itemid=172
Oooh! That sounds & looks interesting! I have just downloaded and installed the program. Thanks rattler!

I will investigate TacOps demo-version later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
my first intuition turned out to be right on the spot I think:
I don't think so. You forgot the Vehicle barriers with minefields which will blow vehicles up.

Have you heard what we computer scientists say about computer programs? We say "GIGO - garbage in, garbage out" - meaning if the input data is wrong then the results which the program calculates will be wrong too, even if the program works fine.

So if you feed in data which doesn't correspond correctly to my plan, misses something out, then the program won't give the correct results.

For instance, for these two scenarios -

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
- First scenario: 3 toyotas with a 60mm 3-tube mortar team within one them simultaneously tried to squeeze through all your towers at the same time for a total of 600 toyotas and 200 mortar teams. I gave the base an AH 64 squadron, the towers 30 mm cannons and TOW (obstacles as pointed out by you: Wire and ditches), guess what: 87 mortar teams managed to fire one volley at the base, 36 got two volleys off, and 12 got 5 volleys off (I stopped it there).

- 2nd scenario: 100 LMG armed Toyotas with 30 (Russian) 82mm 3-tube mortar teams and 3 faulty old MANPADS tried to squeeze between 5 of your towers. Same defenses as above. Result (repeated three times with little difference in outcome): 15 mortar teams got 3 volleys at the base before eliminated.
you just assumed that the Toyotas could drive between the gun towers. They can't. There's a vehicle barrier field which is impassible for ground traffic unless a path is cleared through the obstacles and minefields first.

So your TacOps simulation did not model the effect of the "Vehicle barriers - obstacles, anti-tank mines" field which would blow your Toyota pickups into pieces if they drove onto the minefield.

The minefield starts somewhere near the effective range of the gun tower autocannons something like 2.5 kilometres or 1.5 miles from the gun towers.

I presume you forgot about the minefields, shown as a blue ring in my diagram? Take a closer look.



If the enemy Toyota pickups stop before the minefield then they are still 7.5 miles or 12 kilometres from the Central Base and that's well out of range of a 60 mm mortar - the M242's range is only 3490 metres and an 82mm mortar - the 82-PM-41 has a range of only 3,040 metres and with the long range mortar shell still only 4020 metres.

Even if the Toyota pickups are carrying 120 mm heavy mortars, with a range of 6200 - 7200 metres or 107 mm rocket launchers with a range of 8500 metres they are still well short of the Central Base.

The enemy would need mortars or rockets with a longer range than that to hit the Central Base from outside the Vehicle barrier minefields.

Now if the enemy were to try to fire a command-line-of-sight MANPADS such as a Blowpipe missile at a gun tower and if the enemy didn't get shot by the autocannon first and if the missile didn't misfire and if the enemy had a skilled operator that could hit the gun turret from a range of over 3000 metres, with the missile's shaped-charge warhead and even with cage armour on the gun turrets, that I think could do some damage to the turret and possibly enough to suppress the tower. It's a long, risky, difficult, expensive shot but I suppose an enemy suicidal terrorist group like the Taliban might think it worth a try?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
- 3rd scenario: Attack on 3 of your towers with the intent to disable the middle one, using supressive fires by 6x 82 mortar teams (3 tube each) and 30 LMG equipped Toyotas took out the middle tower every time (the mentioned lack of mutual support) against a flight of AH 64 and 30mm cannons/TOW leaving a gap of 1600 yards where the follo up could easily enter.
OK well the first part of this enemy attack against the gun towers sounds more plausible but not the second about a "gap" that won't be there because the Vehicle barrier minefield is still there even if you manage to disable a gun tower.

The 82mm mortars and your light machine guns if they have time, which I doubt but assuming they do have time, they can certainly start firing on the towers from positions outside the Vehicle barrier minefields.

Mortars and LMGs both have a maximum range in excess of 2500 metres so the gun towers would be in range. The problem the enemy would have is accuracy and hitting the target to effect in the short time available.

The mortar team would need some time to set up and find the range and adjust any error in targeting with successive rounds to be able to hit the target and the light machine guns could probably hit the gun tower OK but would find it difficult to hit the gun turret at that extreme range and even if the occasional LMG round hit the gun turret it would just be stopped or deflected harmlessly by the turret armour, impressing nobody.

LMGs, however many of them, 30, 40, 50, whatever, firing at the gun turrets are just going to be targeted by the autocannons and taken out one by one. It's just target practice for the tower gunners.

If the enemy mortar teams got very lucky, if the towers were not paying attention and didn't sound the alarm until they started receiving incoming and one of the early mortar rounds struck the gun turret although it would not destroy the gun turret with its additional armour or kill the gunners, just shake the gunners up a bit, possibly suppress them, it might take them out of that fight and disable that tower.

But even before the mortar teams are finding their range, the reaction forces are going to be responding.

The Toyotas should be seen by the gun towers at the time they drive onto the Threat Zone and the autocannon will open fire if a vehicle gets within about 3000 metres with devastating effect against an unarmoured vehicle and the alarm will go out for a reaction force to scramble and attend.

I would point out that a convoy of 30 Toyota pick-up trucks heading towards the base even while in the Trust Zone could alert suspicion and trigger a base scramble, putting an Apache in the air. It is likely that the roads in the Trust Zone near the base will have a base camera on them 24/7 looking for signs of enemy activity.

When a base Apache attack helicopter arrives overhead the attackers will be quickly taken out.

The attack ends there. The most the enemy can achieve with that attack is a shaken up gun tower team and a bit of superficial damage on the gun turret armour. More likely there would be no damage done at all.

The enemy would lose all its men in that attack and the defenders would lose none. My defence plan succeeds this time.

Nice try rattler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
Since the Maginot Line in the 30s we know that such static defenses dont work and are useless once the enemy gets by (and he will with maneuver warfare): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line .

Excerpts (rings a bell?):
Yes I know about the Maginot Line. The German army went around the strongest parts of the line, they by-passed all the strong points and went on to Paris which surrendered without a fight. The strong points themselves were not taken by military force. They were ordered to surrender when the whole French government surrendered.

The lesson of the Maginot line for Afghanistan is don't expect the Afghanistan / Pakistan border defences to be effective - the Taliban will go around them. The other lesson is expect strongly defended bases to be very difficult for an enemy to take.

So the lesson of the Maginot Line supports my strategy 100%.
October 2nd, 2012  
Peter Dow
 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tankboy
Is this some kind of x box war game.
Not quite like most X-box games no though you could call it "war gaming" of a sort.

I've proposed a design for perimeter defences for a military base which I have just described in words and a diagram and rattler has suggested modelling my plan using a PC military simulation program he knows about to estimate how well the proposed defences might hold up under various attack scenario simulations.
--
Boots
October 2nd, 2012  
Peter Dow
 
 

Topic: Fortified towers - what will they think of next?


Quote:
Originally Posted by captiva303
It is a direct copy of the liberty defence system from the "Resistance" series of games on PS 3. Didn't work then can't imagine it working now.

Quote:
Resistance Wiki: The Liberty Defense Perimeter (LDP) was a 4,500 mile boundary line ...

The United States War Department established the Liberty Defense Tower program, which consists of a series of 1,400 foot tall towers placed every 50 feet along the LDP. This comes to 38,780 towers along the whole of the Perimeter. The towers consisted of four crank 44mm emplacements surrounding a single large 90mm emplacement, and are armed with concussion shells that can fire at targets up to 50 miles away.


Mmmm. My plan is not a "direct copy" though is it?

Resistance computer game dates from 2006. I am fairly sure that defensive towers were invented before then.

Oh look there's one that dates from medieval times -



Wikipedia: Fortified tower

and here's one from the Great Wall of China



My, my.
October 2nd, 2012  
headwards
 
I think only someone who works with computers could predict such perfect variables- and then have the arrogance to try to rethink a whole world military effort with little to no experience in ANYTHING relevant to it.

Its shocking frankly. Please tell me you are under 16
October 2nd, 2012  
Der Alte
 
He who defends everything defends nothing.
October 2nd, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
It certainly is a mighty expensive way to stop a couple of guys in a pickup truck.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to get all the troops that would be needed to man that system to dig a 10m trench right around the the yellow line, maybe fill it with water and have access regulated by a retractable bridge?

Hell throw in a few alligators and you will keep infantry at bay as well.

Similar to this...


I guarantee they wont hit it with a Toyota unless the Taliban reinvent and build a really large trebuchets.

I tried to take this post as serious but I just cant do it, you have gone past using a hammer to crack a walnut and are now trying to use a wrecking ball.
October 2nd, 2012  
LeEnfield
 
 
This chap is a pain in the rear, he always has to be right and has been dumped from other web sites. The best thing to do is to ignore him and hopefully he will go away.
October 2nd, 2012  
03USMC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
This chap is a pain in the rear, he always has to be right and has been dumped from other web sites. The best thing to do is to ignore him and hopefully he will go away.
Tell me more Para.
October 3rd, 2012  
Capt Frogman
 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
This chap is a pain in the rear, he always has to be right and has been dumped from other web sites. The best thing to do is to ignore him and hopefully he will go away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03USMC
Tell me more Para.
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