Pearl Harbour one more lie????? - Page 7




 
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Boots
 
March 4th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
i think you question has already been answered, back then the aircraft carrier was an unproved weapon, and the aircraft they deployed third rate at best. it was only after the japanese proved at pearl harbour that carrier bourne aircraft could be a devestating weapon that the US started developing true fighter & bomber aircraft for operation at sea.

also, because a truely effective computer had not been developed at that time, decoding intercepted signals was a very time intensive process, really only usefull for broad intentions rather than countering enemy movements.

and if that wasn't enough, RADAR was EXTREMELY primitive, often relying on the skill of the operater to determine birds, from clouds, from hostile aircraft. again as it was a new and experimental system, there wasn't any trust attatched to it. couple those factors with the B-17 flight that was scheduled to return....no surprises really

so basically, in a post 9/11 world, alot of people are activily looking for conspiracies to call the americans on. i think it would be unwise to tar the US of WWII with the same brush as we do George Bush & Co
March 4th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
I can imagine how long could be to decode one of these messege, but do you think that the japanese planed the attack the afternoon before?? Come on!
March 4th, 2005  
Italian Guy
 
 
Stauroflakes, as Godofthunder said, you sound like your intent is that of upsetting Americans here. The point is that you got your answer already. Some were very competent answers.
Now it's up to you. Follow the conspiracies or accept the explanations.
Or go John Kerry, if you please.
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Boots
March 4th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
No That is not my intention, and if somebody got upset i apologise. For me the discussion is over
March 5th, 2005  
03USMC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
I can imagine how long could be to decode one of these messege, but do you think that the japanese planed the attack the afternoon before?? Come on!
You have to remember the code within the encrypted message. Encryptions are mathematically based to disguise words. When the message is decrypted you still have the code. "Climb Mount Natakima." but what does it mean? They wouldn't send "Attack Pearl Harbor."
March 5th, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
No That is not my intention, and if somebody got upset i apologise. For me the discussion is over
Gonna take your ball and go home, huh? The purpose of these forums is to have multinational discussions about any variety of topics, it is not, however, to attempt to start a flame war and then throw a tit fit and pull out when somebody disagrees with you.


Point.
Counterpoint.
Point.
Counterpoint.
Repeat as necessary.
March 5th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redneck
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
No That is not my intention, and if somebody got upset i apologise. For me the discussion is over
Gonna take your ball and go home, huh? The purpose of these forums is to have multinational discussions about any variety of topics, it is not, however, to attempt to start a flame war and then throw a tit fit and pull out when somebody disagrees with you.


Point.
Counterpoint.
Point.
Counterpoint.
Repeat as necessary.
i think he withdrew from the debate when he new he was wrong. give him credit!
March 5th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Excuse me, I did not i was wrong. I just do not want to keep repeating the same arguments. US knew the japanese codes, how much time before the attack? We do not know. Did they have to react? You say FDR did not. I say that the attack was the perfect excuse to join the war. Without that attack, do you think US citizens would have supported a war in europe just 20 years after WWI?
March 5th, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
I say that the attack was the perfect excuse to join the war.


I believe you mean REASON. It really is too bad we entered the war, Hitler and Hirohito were awful nice guys, it's a real shame that we stopped them before they could paint the world in polka dots and feed all the starving children in Africa milk and cookies.

And I am also unclear on what exactly makes the attack on Pearl the driving force behind our involvement in Europe, shouldn't FDR have waited until the Germans attacked Long Island? All jokes aside, the fact that the Japanese were planning and executing an attack on U.S. territory against United States citizens and servicemen would have led us to war with them regardless of the degree of its success. If the message HAD been decoded in time and we HAD had time to react, do you believe that our fighters would have met the Japanese over the Pacific, waved at each other, and called it a day? By that point, Japan had committed to war with the United States, whether or not the attack was a success, diplomatic relations had ceased the second the Imperial Navy turned their ships towards Hawaii, and sacrificing our fighting men would accomplish absolutely nothing.

Point.
March 5th, 2005  
03USMC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
Excuse me, I did not i was wrong. I just do not want to keep repeating the same arguments. US knew the japanese codes, how much time before the attack? We do not know. Did they have to react?
First you need to stop thinking of the intelligence gathering and military assets circa 1941 in 21st century terms. Radio intercept tech in 1941 was limited in the case of the Purple Code to Magic program.

You need to understand the difference between Encrypt/ Decrypt vs Code Breaking and analysis. As before Encryption is designed mathematically to scramble and disguise the words within the message decrypting will give hard text. The text will contain operational data, but no one sends it with out code. For example if I want you to jump off at Phase line Green to attack hill 533 I may send. "Initiate Plan Tiger." When I send this and its intercepted then Analyists try to discern exactly what where or who Plan Tiger is. Code within encryption. The IJN/IJA used this extensively.

The best example of this is the Battle of Midway. The US forces were tracking two IJN battle groups. One headed towards the Aleutian Chain and One heading towards the vicinity of Midway Island. The tactical commanders realiazed one was most probably a feint to draw out forces from the real objective.
The Purple Section noticed that IJN messages kept refering to AF. Cmdr Joe Rosenthal OIC determined that AF was possibly Midway Island and convinced Admiral Nimitz to allow a Message to be sent in the clear from Midway concerning the Fresh Water Condenser being broke. The IJN intercepted and a Message was sent intercepted and decrypted that AF's (Midway island) was low on fresh water. This happened over a couple months.