Pearl Harbour one more lie????? - Page 4




 
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Boots
 
March 1st, 2005  
03USMC
 
 
For Manning since he was 1st Bn try the 1st Marine Division Assn. The 1st Parachute was attached to them for Solomons. Since he served on Iwo there is an Iwo Jima Assn. If you know what Division he served with on Iwo you might be able to find it there. 4th, 5th and 3rd Marine Divisions all fought on Iwo.
March 1st, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 

Topic: Re: [b]Pearl Harbour[/b] one more lie?????


Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
Are there any studies concerning the knowlodgment of EEUU on an inminent attack to pearl harbour? I think that this attack was just the excuse Rosvelt needed to enter WW II. I should not be surprised because this is the way the US has began or join many wars. (From the war with spain in XIX century: i am talking about the Maine; passing though the vietnam war: the attack to the submarines was a lie...;and arriving to the war or irak, where are the mass destruction weapons??) But these is the things works i guess, the US is the most powerful empiry ever and many times the real origin of wars might not like to the public opinion, so it is better to lie.....what a wonderful world!!
If I'm understanding all of this correctly this thread is about one of two things:
1.) The World sucks today becausethe USA screwed everything up on purpose and they are a bunch of bloodthirsty madmen and filthy liars to boot.
2.) The United States has conspired with ancient secret order of knights that have long controlled events throughout the world. They are working together to bring about the advent of Bob, the great alien leader, who will invade and conquer the world. Bob will then hand complete control of planet Earth back to Fred, the gas station attendant in Australia who secretly rules the world today. In exchange, Bob will be granted all the jellyfish tentacles he wants (critical to his mysterious alien technology).

How did I do?
March 1st, 2005  
serbianpower
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadet Airman Adam Seaman
WHAT! FDR KNEW THE NIPS WHERE GOING TO ATTACK! Wow. And I suppose the Romans knew there where Tojans in the wooden horse? Geesh, I'm sure both countries agree to the slauter of their soldiers and navies. Man you need a serious history lesson.
oh man, this kind of comments make me sad. U are saying that somebody needs history lesson?

will somebody explain why nothing was done to prevent this atack when us knew japanese secret codes and was able to listen their radio trafic since december 1939? there were no carriers in harbor during the atack, and they were the most valuable weapon in pacific war. we all know that ww2 did realy good for us economy, it was exactly what us needed.

I do not like big conspiracy theories, but there are few facts that make me wonder. I know what most of you guys are going to think after you read this post, but can somebody answer some of this questions.
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Boots
March 2nd, 2005  
03USMC
 
 
As far as carriers go you have to understand that in 1941 the Aircraft Carrier was not the center piece of the Fleet it is today. The Navy was still pretty firmly in the grip of the Battle Wagon Admirals. Carriers and Submarines were both thought of as support ships. Battleships and Heavy Cruisers were considered the mainstay of Naval Surface warfare all other vessels were meant to be their screening vessels. Much as Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates are for Carriers today.
The Carrier had not really proven it's worth yet. And only came into it's own during WWII. That is to say that the Carriers and their Admirals proved their value in places like Coral Sea and Midway that changed the face of naval surface action in the Pacific.
So in the minds of the Navy Brass like Admiral King CNO, and Admiral Kimmel CINCPAC, the loss and crippling of the battleships was considered a grievace loss. They were prepared for a surface gun action type war.

As far as code breaking goes yes the code that was used by the IJN could be read, but not in real time. It had to be decrypted and translated it was not a five minute type of process. Especially given the amount of message traffic intercepted and the personnel available that had the ability to decrypt and analyze. This was also a speciality that was in it's infancy in 1941.

It is a fact that we were translating a good amount of traffic. Even the Japanese Mission in Washington DC didn't decrypt their own messages fast enough to learn of the attack. Before their meeting with Sec of State Hull on the day of the attack.
March 2nd, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by serbianpower
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadet Airman Adam Seaman
WHAT! FDR KNEW THE NIPS WHERE GOING TO ATTACK! Wow. And I suppose the Romans knew there where Tojans in the wooden horse? Geesh, I'm sure both countries agree to the slauter of their soldiers and navies. Man you need a serious history lesson.
oh man, this kind of comments make me sad. U are saying that somebody needs history lesson?

will somebody explain why nothing was done to prevent this atack when us knew japanese secret codes and was able to listen their radio trafic since december 1939? there were no carriers in harbor during the atack, and they were the most valuable weapon in pacific war. we all know that ww2 did realy good for us economy, it was exactly what us needed.

I do not like big conspiracy theories, but there are few facts that make me wonder. I know what most of you guys are going to think after you read this post, but can somebody answer some of this questions.
"Tora! Tora! Tora!" (the movie) covered most of it pretty well. There was some degree of early warning, but the information didn't get to the right people quickly enough to make a difference. You can't take that movie as gospel truth, but its the closest to the truth that I am aware of.

As for the bit about Carriers. Nobody knew how effective carriers were at that time, so the submarines and carriers being away from port doesn't support any theory. Most "right-thinking" naval commanders knew for a "fact" that only Battleships, Cruisers and Destroyers could win a naval war. Pearl Harbor was very effective at shattering that myth.

The economic boon of war was not yet clearly established in the view of Americans either.

The claim that the USA knew absolutely everything far in advance and that there was a secret conspiracy ... well I have heard many sensationalist ideas, but based on that idea, every German U-boat should have easily been sunk within a week of the breaking of the Enigma Code.
March 2nd, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
"I have heard many sensationalist ideas, but based on that idea, every German U-boat should have easily been sunk within a week of the breaking of the Enigma Code."

Excellent point, Thunder.
March 2nd, 2005  
Zucchini
 
[quote="Strongbow"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03USMC
...
It may be difficult but would WW2 Veterans organisations have information on decorated individual Marines like 2nd Lt Robert L. Manning?

Where can you go to get info like this
Yes, the vets has associations. Dad is a lifetime member of the 5th Marine Division Association.

I have been able to find out he was from Chattanooga and is buried at the National Cemetery there, and was able to confirm he received the Navy Cross at Gavutu, but have not been able to get a copy of the actual citation.

This site has a good history of the paramarines with some excellent photographs. They copied the Nazi paratroopers on the initial exit from the plane:

http://www.nps.gov/wapa/indepth/extC...47-00/sec4.htm
March 2nd, 2005  
Italian Guy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
"Tora! Tora! Tora!" (the movie) covered most of it pretty well. There was some degree of early warning, but the information didn't get to the right people quickly enough to make a difference. You can't take that movie as gospel truth, but its the closest to the truth that I am aware of.
Reminds me of the tsunami. Same dynamics.
Excellent points, guys.
March 2nd, 2005  
serbianpower
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charge_7
"I have heard many sensationalist ideas, but based on that idea, every German U-boat should have easily been sunk within a week of the breaking of the Enigma Code."

Excellent point, Thunder.
not exactly, submarine can move, harbor can not. but I am sure that number of sunken submarines was increast after breaking of the enigma code.
March 2nd, 2005  
serbianpower
 
The economic boon of war was not yet clearly established in the view of Americans either.

I would not agree with that. in american economical theory before ww2 there was no doubts. second wold war had simular efect as "big deal". maybe in the eyes of ordinary american, and I supose in the mind of most politician, view of economic boom was not established, but economic experts were aware of this fact for sure, and these are people that create long and mid term plans for every country.