Pastors Plan to burn Koran endangers US troops

Shmack, come on. If you were born in Somalia, you would be poor too. Whatever how hard working you have to be.

There is a huge "luck" factor. If you are born in a region where there is wealth, where there is knowledge... You can build a powerful group/society. You are not completely independent.

And no, you cant compare Libya with Turkey. Libya knew the horrors of colonialism. While Turkey never did. Colonialism destroys a large part of their history, their pride etc... These people lost centuries of knowledge in colonialism. Look at the average turkish man, look at his pride, look how he knows what he wants... Do you think that the people who were colonized have these things?

In Rwanda they are still killing each others because of the confusion built by the colonial era.

To make good tanks (as an example), it takes generations and generations of research. And tons of ressources. Money, metal, oil, etc...

And dont tell me that the whole mankind have the same resources. Because it's not.

Rich countries are lucky countries. Of course, I would never say that the man is powerless... He have the power to change his destiny, look at Japan. Destroyed after the war, a small country with low natural resources, but they built an empire, and rebuilt it in half a century.

But there is a little luck factor.

You know, in natural selection, we acknowledge the luck factor. Let's say that you are a superior animal, a wonderful predator, wonderfully skilled... But... You are in a desert, and you find no female of your kind to reproduce...
So? what will happen? You will die alone, and you will disappear from the surface of earth. Because you were unlucky.
 
LeMask, but who creates wealth and knowledge? As you've said generations and generations of research. But some one has to begin. Every nation began with a bunch of people who had nothing. I understand that some countries are rich in resources, and some are not, but in some countries there is movement forward, and in others there is stagnation, they are in the 19th century. What colonialism legacy can we talk about now? Yes, sure that influences nations very much, but it's 21 century outside already. If in Rwanda they don't stop killing each other because of some 'confusion' they will always live in sh*t. And you know what their confusion is? They just can't do anything else, no one teaches them and they don't seem to be very upset because of this.

So, get me right please, an educated man (i'm not talking about myself :)) won't go to a desert without water, sunshade and a warm jacket, and if he's not sure that he will find the way out. I'm not a fascist, but there is a certain famous law which determines the way of life on Earth.

As for one particular person, well i can't argue with your words. You may call this luck... but you know, being an idiot cannot be excused by nationality, and shooting missiles from a school yard, or keeping hundreds of children as hostages, or skyscraper ramming are conscious barbaric acts, which were performed by people who reject traditional morality. And this has absolutely nothing to do with their fortune or poverty. That's about their view of life, they are sure that the rich owe them simply because they are poor.
 
Well, colonisation was a real curse for nearly everyone who had to deal with its legacy. It's a very large subject, it would take me forever to explain the idea.

But let's take Africa and Europe. And then compare the commercial movements. First the Africa to Africa movements and then the Africa to Europe movements.

You will see that there is a lot of commerce between Africa and Europe, and I mean by that between the Ex-Empires and their Ex-colonies.
And this commerce gives huge advantages to the rich powerful Western countries. The whole economic infrastructure is built this way... Railroads are built from the south to the north to transport resources to the north, there is only a few connections between neighboring countries...

And this is only one little example... The colonial era was disastrous for the colonies. They killed the proud, strong men who defend the countries... And they installed local corrupt regimes to serve their interests. They destroyed the old habits they had, their culture, their heritage... So they can sell them their culture. They took their ressources. They made them speak new languages to install a dominance through culture... etc etc...

And the case of Rwanda is a good example of how terrible was the colonization. They are "confused" and "living in ****" like you said... Why? Because they are still dealing with the "confusion" built by colonization so they can be enslaved...

And why no one can teach them? Because the few people who could teach them something were neutralized... They went abroad, they were killed in civil war or by the colonial forces, etc...

Well, I just want to convince you that being smart and hardworking isnt enough to succeed. There is a luck factor.

You can be an idiot, and then, if you get lucky... You will get some education, and then, you will be a smart guy.

And in our corrupt economic system... The rich owe the poor. Because the rich can get so rich... That there is no way that they deserve that much money...

And rich smart people can wage war on other smart rich people for the sake of the poor... In the name of justice and in the name of the benefit of mankind...

Marxism anyone? Doesnt ring a bell?
 
LeMask said:
Marxism anyone? Doesnt ring a bell?
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I knew it... You are a Commie. How did I not guess from the beginning. An actual, genuine 'Pinko'm one that seriously believes in all the crap Marx, Lenin, and Castro, and Mao and all of em have said. Marxism/Communism murdered more people and caused much more pain and misery than colonialism ever did. Oh, why am I even arguing with you. You are a bloody Marxist...
 
I'm not a communist.

My point is that in fight between rich and poor, there is rich people leading the fight.

To explain it more, I meant that in the fight between the strong and the weak, sometimes, people who are in the "strong" side take up arms against the others to side with the weak.

And by the way, since when is it a crime to be a commie?
 
Oh dear the McCarthy brigade come out of the closet every time anyone mentions equality and justice. Let's have some free speech!

Lemask: In the US they have political freedom providing you aren't a communist or even socialist which is a sin against humanity according to many. If you have tons of money you might even get elected!

Now what sort of choice will that provide? a far right wing party v slightly less right wing party with their hands tied by the corporations.
 
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perseus said:
Oh dear the McCarthy brigade come out of the closet every time anyone mentions equality and justice. Let's have some free speech!
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The ideology he propagates (and you, apparently, support) on here is responcible for the deaths of tens of millions in my country; including many of my family. It is responcible for my family losing a lot of land and property, much of which we still have not gotten back. It is an evil ideology, on par with Nazism. In fact, Stalin's Purges killed more people than the Holocaust. Hitler's death camps were modelled after the Soviet GULag. What Mao did to many millions of innocent Chinese in the Cultural Revolution, Great Leap Forward. North Korea. Cuba. Nice places, eh, that embrace this wonderful ideology.
 
Prapor, you are mistaking.

First things first.

Gulags are not economical organs, but political organs. They are part of a dictatorship. Not part of an economical system, communist, socialist or capitalist.

So accusing socialism/communism of killing people in Gulags is somehow ridiculous.

I explained my point. I'm not here to spread communism, I'm not a communist, and I dont believe in communism... And I'm pretty sure that perseus isnt a communist neither. He was just defending freedom of speech.

And even if I was a communist, I killed no one, and I surely killed no one in your family/country... So calm down buddy.

I was just saying that like with communism, rich people can produce a doctrine to wage war on their own people "rich people".

Like Ben Laden, who came from a rich Saudi family, and went to Afghanistan to side with people living in the mountains...

He could have been screwing girls in Marbella for life... But he decided to wage war on powerful countries with poor people as allies.
 
LeMask said:
Prapor, you are mistaking.

First things first.

Gulags are not economical organs, but political organs. They are part of a dictatorship. Not part of an economical system, communist, socialist or capitalist.

So accusing socialism/communism of killing people in Gulags is somehow ridiculous.

I explained my point. I'm not here to spread communism, I'm not a communist, and I dont believe in communism... And I'm pretty sure that perseus isnt a communist neither. He was just defending freedom of speech.

And even if I was a communist, I killed no one, and I surely killed no one in your family/country... So calm down buddy.

I was just saying that like with communism, rich people can produce a doctrine to wage war on their own people "rich people".

Like Ben Laden, who came from a rich Saudi family, and went to Afghanistan to side with people living in the mountains...

He could have been screwing girls in Marbella for life... But he decided to wage war on powerful countries with poor people as allies.
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Bin Laden is coward. He has never himself fought in a single battle. Always hid behind the backs of others.

But I can agree with the rest. And I am quite calm. I simply don't like Communists. Nothing wrong with that. Lots of people don't :)
 
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. -John Kennith Galbraith
 
Why should he be fighting?

There is a lot of dumbasses ready to fight...

And, let's be fair. Ben Laden is an old sick man... I would call him a complete idiot if he took arms to fight.

And I think that he directed an army against the Soviets. Should check this information tho...
 
perseus said:
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. -John Kennith Galbraith
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That´s BS!
Communism went wrong because the very ideal from the beginning was defective. When mankind’s nature is such that most prefer to provide as little as possible and enjoy as much as possible, who will decide how much each will be required to provide and how much he or she should be allowed to enjoy? Communism requires a totalitarian exercise of power without limits, a slave-like relationship between rulers and their minions. That was the mistake from the beginning, and this is the error that can not be separated from the ideal. If you are accepting the ideal, then you are also accepting the exercise of power, Gulag-camps and the Berlin Wall. Without them the ideal can not be enforced.

What´s fascinating about communism is that it succeeded in convincing a lot of people that everything’s great, as long as you transfer full power to some self-proclaimed leaders.
 
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Micha, capitalism is flawed since the beginning as well...

Look at the world around us... Wealth and sadness, pollution and poverty even in the rich countries...
 
LeMask said:
Micha, capitalism is flawed since the beginning as well...

Look at the world around us... Wealth and sadness, pollution and poverty even in the rich countries...
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Well what are the remedies, there is not enough to go around sometimes, I know that in most cases there are but not always.

Back tracking, I am just glad that the books were not burned, rested a little easier knowing that disrespect and show of ignorance was never followed through.
 
When mankind’s nature is such that most prefer to provide as little as possible and enjoy as much as possible, who will decide how much each will be required to provide and how much he or she should be allowed to enjoy?
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it's a very cynical attitude. May I suggest it is a self reinforcing principle, if you see everyone around you looking after number one, you are tempted to do the same. The reverse is true, people can be altruistic, albeit encouraged by the selfish genes they carry. Cooperation together in groups, followed by larger groups, is actually been why humans have been successful. What would happen in a war if everyone acted as an individual? War and the military is the ultimate proof that social cooperation within groups is essential. Unfortunately, it also demonstrates a lack of cooperation between groups!
 
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Perseus
You can’t say that you yourself don’t contain this idea. If we can reap the benefits without having worked hard, but let the other do it for you, that’s not an idea which is humans remote.

Moreover, it was with reference to the communist system. If you don’t get rewarded for providing more, why should you work harder?
 
Communism does NOT work. I am sorry, but how many actual Communist countries are still functioning today? China is basically a market capitalist society; Cuba is abandoning many Communist principles as we speak; only North Korea... well, let us not even go there. North Korea is just a scary place, period.

What does that tell you?

In any case, Marx's ideas, that humans would work for each other for, basically, free, and all that, are flawed. He does not take into consideration that humans want to be paid for their work. Or the competitiveness of human nature, where people want to be able to get higher wages and better things then others. That was the problem in the USSR: on a collective farm one farmer worked his ass off and collected 95% of the crop, while another slacked off all day and only collected 5%. But they got paid THE SAME. Of course after awhile most people simply stopped putting any effort into their work, because they were not rewarded for it. And the whole system fell over. It could not have possibly worked.
 
Well, the problem is that you guys feel like you are forced to chose between A & B. A is capitalism and B is communism...

But we know that both systems are flawed to the bone. Capitalism provides a much faster growth, this is why the communist models were crushed.

Communism a is a wonderful economic doctrine, but it's more adapted to ants rather than to human beings...

Now, you have to know that there is many many other economic models.

The economic crisis showed us that there was an economic branch who didnt suffer...
Islamic finances did survive the economic crisis, they had wonderful results when everything was crashing in flames...

And guess why? Because they got it right. I'm not a believer myself, but I know my history well. Mohammed, their prophet was working in commerce, he was a shop keeper and professionnal trader... And he cared A LOT about social justice.

So this prophet like genius thought about a very simple economic system.
It's very close to Capitalism, but you have a few principle made for regulation. And a moral code. A sort of live and let live economic doctrine.

A few example:
- Prohibition of interests (if money can buy human work, then only human work can make money, money doesnt make money)
- Moderation in consumption (they had no oil at that time but they cared already about ressources?)

Just by respecting these principles, no more accumulated debts, no more money created out of money (think about the bankers lending money out of nothing), inflation restricted to natural inflation due to the rarity of materials/skills etc...
And in our era, we trade money as a commodity... And you dont even imagine the destructive effect of this practice on poor countries with a weak currency...

And this is just to show you how an economic doctrine, centuries old... Is still better than this silly capitalist system...

By the way, educated Muslims are well aware of this situation, and they are extremely angry to see their countries using the capitalist model while they have their own model...
I was told about that every time we spoke about finances/economics...
 
When people talk of Communism, their minds immediately jump to Karl Marx, Soviet Union, China, North Korea etc.

They are not examples of Communism, and this is the problem within Western media and society. We are taught that Communism is evil because they were our enemies, they didn't approve of freedom blah blah blah. Basically, 95% of the b******t they taught us in school is just that; b******t.

When I was in High School I shat myself six different ways when somebody mentioned Communism, China or the Soviet Union; They told me that Communism is based on evil, and is the work of the devil (I unfortunately had the displeasure of going to one of the most fanatic Christian schools in my state). After visiting my partners family in Romania, it sort of cleared out the lies I have been told when in High School & College.

See, Karl Marx's version of Communism written in the Communist Manifesto (Its a good read actually, even if you are Anti-Communist) is basically the closest we could get to having a heaven on Earth. However, his version of Communism while good, was outdated. In todays world, you simply cannot achieve Marxist Communism in any way because of how our society has changed. I personally believe that even if Marxist Communism could be achieved in todays world, it would take hundreds of years to achieve it because of its nature (Free goods, abolishing currency etc). In this sense, saying things like "The Soviet Union was Communist" doesn't work.

However, variants of Socialism which follow the good aspects of Communism while keeping in mind that some of its aspects will cause problems within the short term is in effect a good, proven system. I wont go on with my rant now because I am supposed to be working, but if anyone is interested I will go on.

P.S. I'm not a Communist by the way, I just like the idea of it.
 
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