It passed...

[A Can of Man]

Sukio, I think you missed those posts where I pretty much championed capitalism to death much to Perseus' annoyance. I believe in capitalism to the core but I realize that it is NOT always the answer.

Here's my take on the American system.
It encourages spending. The goal is to make it easy to earn money and also to encourage people to spend money (or else they face heavier taxation) as a method of distributing the wealth.
For the most part, it's a good system.
However, there are certain services that just essentials where stability is far more valuable and money needs to get to them. Education and healthcare are not just commodities, they are among the things that help improve the country's national power.
If you just go by the pure capitalist argument, you should just cut the crap and disband the entire military and replace it purely with PMCs. Do you have any idea how inefficient the military is in terms of efficient money spending? It's pathetic. But why is the military public/government and not private? Because even when it's running on a loss (i.e. peacetime) you still need it.
Military, police and fire are run by the government so why the hospitals aren't is somewhat beyond me.
The truth is that government run operations are not very efficient. That's not to say that they're bad at their work, lots of government run health care systems are in fact extremely competent but they're not very efficient. It's just the nature of the beast since they are for the most part exempt from real world competition. This is why you have to have public options for only the most essential services and not all (though in a perfect world, every industry would have a public option as well as private companies to choose from... but that's just a pipedream).

 

[Yossarian]

Sukio, I think you missed those posts where I pretty much championed capitalism to death much to Perseus' annoyance. I believe in capitalism to the core but I realize that it is NOT always the answer.

Here's my take on the American system.
It encourages spending. The goal is to make it easy to earn money and also to encourage people to spend money (or else they face heavier taxation) as a method of distributing the wealth.
For the most part, it's a good system.
However, there are certain services that just essentials where stability is far more valuable and money needs to get to them. Education and healthcare are not just commodities, they are among the things that help improve the country's national power.
If you just go by the pure capitalist argument, you should just cut the crap and disband the entire military and replace it purely with PMCs. Do you have any idea how inefficient the military is in terms of efficient money spending? It's pathetic. But why is the military public/government and not private? Because even when it's running on a loss (i.e. peacetime) you still need it.
Military, police and fire are run by the government so why the hospitals aren't is somewhat beyond me.
The truth is that government run operations are not very efficient. That's not to say that they're bad at their work, lots of government run health care systems are in fact extremely competent but they're not very efficient. It's just the nature of the beast since they are for the most part exempt from real world competition. This is why you have to have public options for only the most essential services and not all (though in a perfect world, every industry would have a public option as well as private companies to choose from... but that's just a pipedream).

What bothers me though, it that I don't believe that making a public health care option should have been the remedy to those 46 million falling through the cracks, government intervention should not have been the answer in the form of completely running the show(we are only in the negative around 11 trillion) and having to pull some of that money from taxpayers

Mainly the rich taxpayers. I mean look at the rich in this country, most of the them got there by making money, which is everyone's goal in this country, but the middle class and the lower class demonize them, I don't see where this source of extreme envy comes from, it will eventually in my opinion(WARNING I AM NOW ENGAGING IN A OPINIONATED STATEMENT) put a glass ceiling on how much wealth you can posses.

Back to health care, I don't think that the U.S. old health care system was perfect, it did indeed have major issues. BUT, the U.S. government making another arm of public service was not the brightest answer, I think that government intervention should have came in the form of stricter regulation of private Enterprise, and closer government to company relationships to ensure that these regulations are enforced and are effective.

Im not angry, or being a hardcase, just kinda sad we are taking the route we are taking

 

[-- Dusty]

I want free health care.

I'm sick and tired of paying out the ying yang for MY medical care while illegal aliens get it for free!

 

[George]

Costs would go down if the illegals were booted out, cost of health, law enforcement, prisons....

 

[A Can of Man]

Make 'em legal and make 'em pay taxes.
Problem solved.
The demand for their labor is too high and when they leave, there is no one to fill the vacuum.

Sukio, I don't believe in demonizing the wealthy and everyone will be paying for a public healthcare system. Except maybe who really don't have any money.
Regulation works for many things but you have to look at the core of this problem.
1) People who are unlikely to be sick just don't buy insurance because they spend less money on health care by not taking out insurance.
2) People likely to get sick (because they know their family has a history of some kind of illness or they have dangerous work etc) will buy insurance and many of these people will require payouts on a regular basis.
3) Because of this, there's too many people needing money out and not enough who are putting in.
4) Price goes up even higher and some folks who actually bought policies but haven't been to the hospital for a while will start to question whether this increasingly expensive thing is worth it and won't renew their contracts.
5) This just gets worse and worse.

Sukio the only way to make sure that people get health care coverage without introducing anything public would be as follows:
1) Set a very strict standard by law as to what an insurance company is obligated to do. (Because if you don't, BS insurance companies with very low monthly rates will pop up to help get people benefit from legal loopholes as to what constitutes a health insurance company)
2) Force everyone to buy an insurance policy. It'll be illegal to be alive without one just like it'd be illegal to drive a car without auto insurance.
So you ask me which infringes your rights more?
Having a public option or being forced to buy insurance? The former is always cheaper than the latter and in most parts of the world, the former provides for a much more efficient system of getting to the doctor than in America. Note I said, getting to the doctor. The skill of the doctor is not what is on debate.

 

[Chukpike]

Force everyone to buy an insurance policy. It'll be illegal to be alive without one just like it'd be illegal to drive a car without auto insurance.
So you ask me which infringes your rights more?
Having a public option or being forced to buy insurance? The former is always cheaper than the latter and in most parts of the world, the former provides for a much more efficient system of getting to the doctor than in America. Note I said, getting to the doctor. The skill of the doctor is not what is on debate.

It may be easy for foreigners to except governments forcing policies on their citizens. In the US it is considerably harder to accomplish no matter how much it is in the citzens best interest.
Simply put, the United States government does not have the authority to force citizens to buy heath insurance.

Does not really work that well, but people can be forced to buy car insurance Only if they want to drive and be legal. There still are a lot of people who drive with out licenses or insurance.

 

[MontyB]

I want free health care.

I'm sick and tired of paying out the ying yang for MY medical care while illegal aliens get it for free!

$11 is considered out the "ying yang" these days?

Health Care For Undocumented Immigrants Cost $1.1B In 2000, Study Finds

17 Nov 2006

Health care for undocumented immigrants between ages 18 and 64 cost the U.S. $1.1 billion in 2000, or about $11 per taxpayer household, according to a study by RAND published Tuesday in the journal Health Affairs, the Los Angeles Times reports. For the study, researchers used data from a 2000 survey of 2,543 adults in 65 Los Angeles County neighborhoods. Children and seniors were excluded from the study. The survey asked participants about their use of hospitals and clinics over the past two years. Participants also were asked a number of questions about their legal status and whether they were authorized the stay in the U.S., as well as questions to determine the extent of a neighborhood's impact on people's lives. Researchers inflated the cost of services by 25% to account for incidental costs, according to study author and RAND economist Jim Smith. Researchers found that 22% of undocumented immigrants have health insurance, which covered about $362 million in costs in 2000. Immigrants paid $321 million of health care costs out-of-pocket. The study also found that undocumented immigrants tend to visit physicians less frequently than U.S. citizens because they are younger and because people with chronic health problems are less likely to cross the border, according to Smith. Researchers also found that 40% of male undocumented immigrants had never received a medical checkup and that 23% had never seen physicians, compared with 21% and 10% of male U.S. citizens, respectively. About 21% of undocumented female immigrants had never received a checkup, compared with 5% of female U.S. citizens, according to the study. Comments
The Federation for American Immigration Reform said the study underestimated the cost of health care for undocumented immigrants. The federation estimated the cost of undocumented immigrants' health care in California alone is about $1.4 billion. Jack Martin of the federation said, "From the studies that we have done, (the RAND study) certainly is a low-ball estimate. But there are issues other than cost. ... In the emergency rooms, it has to do with very finite resources and the fact that those medical facilities end up at times being severely overburdened so that the quality of attention that they can give to U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents is degraded." Smith acknowledged the limitations of the 2000 survey, but said, "Let's say I'm wrong and I've understated these costs by $1 billion -- which is a lot -- I'd still conclude the same thing: that these are relatively small aggregate costs for the nation." Margaret Laws, director of public financing and policy for the California HealthCare Foundation, said, "Short of hospitals collecting and reporting data in a way they don't now, there is no other way to measure this. It is the best thing we have" (Larrubia, Los Angeles Times, 11/15).

The study is available online.

"Reprinted with permission from http://www.kaisernetwork.org. You can view the entire Kaiser Daily Health Policy Report, search the archives, or sign up for email delivery at http://www.kaisernetwork.org/dailyreports/healthpolicy. The Kaiser Daily Health Policy Report is published for kaisernetwork.org, a free service of The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation . © 2005 Advisory Board Company and Kaiser Family Foundation. All rights reserved.
Article URL: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/56809.php
Main News Category: Health Insurance / Medical Insurance
Also Appears In: Primary Care / General Practice,

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[A Can of Man]

2) Force everyone to buy an insurance policy. It'll be illegal to be alive without one just like it'd be illegal to drive a car without auto insurance.
So you ask me which infringes your rights more?
Having a public option or being forced to buy insurance? The former is always cheaper than the latter and in most parts of the world, the former provides for a much more efficient system of getting to the doctor than in America. Note I said, getting to the doctor. The skill of the doctor is not what is on debate.

Chupike, taking out of context attempt fail.

 

[Chukpike]

Chupike, taking out of context attempt fail.

Whatever. I took your statement exactly as you wrote it. Your response not with standing, changes nothing. The US is not the Republic of Korea.

My statement is accurate.

The United States government does not have the authority to force citizens to buy heath insurance.

You are free to show me where in the federal laws the government can force people to buy anything.

Also, for your edification. States issue drivers licenses and set up requirements for drivers to have automobile insurance not the federal government.

Also your statement runs to the weird if nothing else:

"Force everyone to buy an insurance policy. It'll be illegal to be alive without one just like it'd be illegal to drive a car without auto insurance."quote 13th redneck

Your sentence tends to suggest people will be exterminated if they do not have health insurance.:-D

 

[A Can of Man]

Your sentence tends to suggest people will be exterminated if they do not have health insurance.:-D

I'm going to need evidence as to why being in violation of the law would equate to extermination.
I don't know about you, but in the Republic of Korea, you do not get executed for speeding. Maybe in America.

Manditory auto insurance is an infringement of rights as well.
Why should an American citizen be forced to buy auto insurance if he's willing to not buy one but bear full responsibility in the event of an accident and chooses to drive safer?

 

[-- Dusty]

$11 is considered out the "ying yang" these days?

$11? "You done been smoking the wrong sagebrush, Pancho!"
Typical ER visit is $660. O2 adds another $160. Then any blood tests. Then any medications. Then the ambulance. In the end it's not uncommon to have a minimum of $1,600 per ER visit.

Back in '04 I was on a rescue call and I was injured. Because of the location and initial injury I also had CO poisoning. I was in ICU and on O2 for 7 hours. X-rays, CAT & MRI. They took decent care of me. You know what I would have paid if the FD didn't cover it? $28,000.

In '06 I was in another accident, not rescue related. Again, ambulance , and I had to pay for the ambulance ($800 for a 5 mile ride), o2 ($400), No blood tests, but they did x-rays, CAT and MRI ($4,600), basic ER charge ($2,500), meds ($120), and a bunch of other stuff. In the end that accident cost me $46,000 for the ER visit and then $135,000 for the rehab which is on-going.

Damn, I sure wish I only had to pay $11!

 

[MontyB]

$11? "You done been smoking the wrong sagebrush, Pancho!"
Typical ER visit is $660. O2 adds another $160. Then any blood tests. Then any medications. Then the ambulance. In the end it's not uncommon to have a minimum of $1,600 per ER visit.

Back in '04 I was on a rescue call and I was injured. Because of the location and initial injury I also had CO poisoning. I was in ICU and on O2 for 7 hours. X-rays, CAT & MRI. They took decent care of me. You know what I would have paid if the FD didn't cover it? $28,000.

In '06 I was in another accident, not rescue related. Again, ambulance , and I had to pay for the ambulance ($800 for a 5 mile ride), o2 ($400), No blood tests, but they did x-rays, CAT and MRI ($4,600), basic ER charge ($2,500), meds ($120), and a bunch of other stuff. In the end that accident cost me $46,000 for the ER visit and then $135,000 for the rehab which is on-going.

Damn, I sure wish I only had to pay $11!

It's not me smoking anything it is the last survey on the matter (that I could find) which said...

Health care for undocumented immigrants between ages 18 and 64 cost the U.S. $1.1 billion in 2000, or about $11 per taxpayer household,

Take it up with them not me as I officially "don't care".

 

[Yossarian]

Those of you who are saying that you want free health care, let me say this, nothing is free, that money will have to come from the U.S. taxpayer, either directly or it will come from you indirectly, it is a public option, NOT a FREE option.

And let me tell you one good reason it is not, one of the main motivators for some people for not going to the doctor's office every other day, is because it costs money, and if you give someone something entirely FREE, they generally do not appreciate it. I can almost grantee you if health care in the U.S. was entirely free, then allot of people would go seek medical assistance for every little ill they come across, if they require it or not. The spend out for this program would be out of control if it were completely free.

And no, the current proposal to a public option set up by the U.S. Congress is not FREE. Also Isn't there talks about making it MANDATORY that every U.S. citizen have either private insurance or be forced to go on public option if they do not have insurance? If so, then what the heck would be anyone's motivation to go private insurance anyway? If they don't have it, then they would be forced to use it anyway. Thats another reason so many Americans have issues with the proposed health care system, even though many more could care less and just are holding their hand out already ignoring the facts just cause they heard the word "free" in the same paragraph as the word "health care"

 

[George]

Illegals-make them legal. Yeah, Democrats promised they would fix the border problem if Reagan made the illegals here legal, but they were lying, he did & they didn't. Now both Partys are hoping these B&E artist will join thier Party if legalized, so they do nothing. The cost of illegals in Los Angeles County alone is staggering. There's no provision in the Constitution for the Fed. Govt. to order citizens to buy something or be fined or jailed. Pelosi doesn't care if it unconstitutional. She wants to expand Govt power anyway. Driving is considered a privilidge & can be restricted, & @ the same time medical care has always been a personal thing between patient & doctor w/o govtinvolvment. This is just part of the rise of the Nanny State.

 

[A Can of Man]

In Bold.

Those of you who are saying that you want free health care, let me say this, nothing is free, that money will have to come from the U.S. taxpayer, either directly or it will come from you indirectly, it is a public option, NOT a FREE option.
Do you have trouble reading? I said PUBLIC OPTION. It is PAID FOR by US Tax Payers. I'm not for a system that doesn't charge anything for a hospital visit but to keep it affordable for people by having everyone throw in a bit every month is hardly difficult to understand. And before you say it's not directed at me, no one here believes that a "free" healthcare coverage is free. It is paid for by taxes and some of the folks saying that here have been on this earth long enough to know that.

And let me tell you one good reason it is not, one of the main motivators for some people for not going to the doctor's office every other day, is because it costs money,
Which is why it really shouln't be free. But it shouldn't rip your budget to shreds either.
and if you give someone something entirely FREE, they generally do not appreciate it.
Dude, if your mother is seriously ill and you can't afford the treatment and the country says it's covered, give her the necessary operation and she gets to live, believe me, you will appreciate it BIG time.
I can almost grantee you if health care in the U.S. was entirely free, then allot of people would go seek medical assistance for every little ill they come across, if they require it or not. The spend out for this program would be out of control if it were completely free.
Healthcare coverage is free in Hong Kong but people don't go to the hospital at every excuse because their employers will find it very frustrating to have a worker who is often away from his/her post.
However, England as far as I know, has this problem of having too many people seek treatment because it's free. So it's not that simple. But as for America, I am with you, I think it should not be free.

And no, the current proposal to a public option set up by the U.S. Congress is not FREE.
Yeah we know.
Also Isn't there talks about making it MANDATORY that every U.S. citizen have either private insurance or be forced to go on public option if they do not have insurance?
Yes there is. It infringes upon people's rights even more than the public option that has been suggested many times. Why do you think this is the one moving forward? Because it keeps the insurance companies extremely rich, which means it keeps some politicians extremely rich. This was most likely the compromise made to make the Republicans agree to any reform. In an economic standpoint, this could actually work but the ethics behind this move is highly questionable.
If so, then what the heck would be anyone's motivation to go private insurance anyway?
Because if forced upon, they'd have to get an insurance policy from a private insurance company.
If they don't have it, then they would be forced to use it anyway.
Yes.
Thats another reason so many Americans have issues with the proposed health care system, even though many more could care less and just are holding their hand out already ignoring the facts just cause they heard the word "free" in the same paragraph as the word "health care"

I'll explain the economic theory part as to why this rather unethical move can work but I don't think you'll really listen so I'm not going to waste my time posting it right now. If you really want to know, then I'll explain it to you the best I can.

Sukio, many of the points you make about what people who want to push for public health care think is not true. People KNOW that it will come from taxes. People pay taxes. It's not rocket science. But the world over, this is the way people make treatment affordable for everyone and even in those countries with strong public health care systems, PRIVATE hospitals and private insurance still exists. People who make a lot more money just choose to use private hospitals or private insurance because they can and these private hospitals and private insurance companies have to show why they're worth the extra cash.

Are there dumbasses who think that this public health care system is totally free? Yeah, just as there are dumbasses who think a public health care system means the country becomes the United Soviet States of America.

 

[A Can of Man]

--DELETED--

you guys are idiots.
/thread.

 

[Chukpike]

Whatever. I took your statement exactly as you wrote it. Your response not with standing, changes nothing. The US is not the Republic of Korea.

My statement is accurate.

The United States government does not have the authority to force citizens to buy heath insurance.

You are free to show me where in the federal laws the government can force people to buy anything.

Also, for your edification. States issue drivers licenses and set up requirements for drivers to have automobile insurance not the federal government.

Also your statement runs to the weird if nothing else:

"Force everyone to buy an insurance policy. It'll be illegal to be alive without one just like it'd be illegal to drive a car without auto insurance."quote 13th redneck

Your sentence tends to suggest people will be exterminated if they do not have health insurance.:-D

I'm going to need evidence as to why being in violation of the law would equate to extermination.
I don't know about you, but in the Republic of Korea, you do not get executed for speeding. Maybe in America.

"Force everyone to buy an insurance policy. It'll be illegal to be alive without one"quote 13th redneck
Here is your evidence, where you imply that people do not have a right to be alive in your sentence:
"It'll be illegal to be alive without one"
Your sentence does not say they should be thrown in prison because they have no insurance. So extermination would likely be your alternative.:-D

Mandatory auto insurance is an infringement of rights as well.
Why should an American citizen be forced to buy auto insurance if he's willing to not buy one but bear full responsibility in the event of an accident and chooses to drive safer?

"Manditory auto insurance is an infringement of rights as well" quote 13th redneck.
What right? Certainly not driving. Driving is not a right. You have to learn to drive and periodically pass tests to maintain the privilege to drive.

Maybe in Korea you are born with a steering wheel in your hand but in the US you need to qualify to drive. Having auto insurance is a condition to be met in order to drive. In the US you won't likely get executed for speeding even if you kill someone else in the process. You can have your driving privileges revoked or suspended.

Apparently you still believe in the tooth fairy:
"Why should an American citizen be forced to buy auto insurance if he's willing to not buy one but bear full responsibility in the event of an accident and chooses to drive safer."
People who do not buy car insurance are not usually fiscally responsible individuals.

 

[A Can of Man]

Let's see...

"Force everyone to buy an insurance policy. It'll be illegal to be alive without one"quote 13th redneck
Here is your evidence, where you imply that people do not have a right to be alive in your sentence:
"It'll be illegal to be alive without one"
Your sentence does not say they should be thrown in prison because they have no insurance. So extermination would likely be your alternative.:-D

"Illegal to be alive without one" doesn't imply execution or death. It just means you'll be penalized for being alive without a health insurance mostly in the form of monthly fines.
You can still drink and get drunk by consuming alcohol below the age of 21. It's illegal to drink, you'll get punished for it, but you can still do it. But they won't blow your head off for it.
Maybe that debate about executions got you a little too excited.

"Manditory auto insurance is an infringement of rights as well" quote 13th redneck.
What right? Certainly not driving. Driving is not a right. You have to learn to drive and periodically pass tests to maintain the privilege to drive.

A lot of things that are considered "rights" can be argued as "privileges" and vice versa. I think people should have the right to drive provided they prove they are capable of doing so. Weren't you all pissed off about the Democrats treating rights as if they were privileges? Well sh1t I am now officially outraged .
Try living in a place where there is nothing for a hundred miles and then tell me that driving is not a right.
Certain rights can be revoked or suspended as a means of punishment.
If you can drive (pass the test) and you can afford a car, what's the big deal?


Maybe in Korea you are born with a steering wheel in your hand but in the US you need to qualify to drive. Having auto insurance is a condition to be met in order to drive. In the US you won't likely get executed for speeding even if you kill someone else in the process. You can have your driving privileges revoked or suspended.

Actually I've gotten the driver's license both in the US and in South Korea and the American testing standards are a joke.
So you can have your driving privileges revoked or suspended.
Just like you can get your living privileges revoked or suspended.

Apparently you still believe in the tooth fairy:

Provide a source or it's slander, which is a crime. :angel:

"Why should an American citizen be forced to buy auto insurance if he's willing to not buy one but bear full responsibility in the event of an accident and chooses to drive safer."
People who do not buy car insurance are not usually fiscally responsible individuals.
That is your opinion.
So you're now saying that people aren't responsible enough so therefore they must be forced to take auto insurance?
Wait, isn't this "people can't handle it" the premise for socializing just about everything? People can't be disciplined enough to use water so therefore the government should ration it! People are wasting too much food so the government must now put a cap on how much food a person can get per month! People aren't responsible enough so they must be forced to take auto insurance! I thought in America there was freedom and personal responsibility and no one (especially the Guvment!) told you what to do.
Chupike... you are your own worst enemy :angel:

 

[Redleg]

Locked, for now