The Panther is Back

The Germans have developed a "new" MBT and with Germany is spending more on its own defense, this one might be produced to replace their older Leo2 tanks. What do you lot think about it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeahVkr2mP0

If the army is in the market for sports car then it looks great but outside that I think it may suffer from similar problems to the first Panther and is over engineered.
- The first issue I have is that the whole front looks like a shot trap (between the hull and turret).
- Second issue is that they have 2 different point defence guns, 12.7mm in the forward turret and 7.62mm on the turret roof, this increases its logistics requirements and becomes problematic once you add the 4+ types of ammunition it carries for the main gun.
- Third issue, what is the point to it carrying a separate loitering munition when by definition it is one giant loitering munition itself.
Fourth issue, the fourth crew position is pointless especially if as some say it can be used for a company commander or drone operator, are those seriously two roles that should be in the nose of an MBT?

The big positive for it is the main gun, it has been well developed and offers significant improvement over the L2's main gun and I think it is time the Leopard design upgrades were rolled into a modern chassis.
 
If the army is in the market for sports car then it looks great but outside that I think it may suffer from similar problems to the first Panther and is over engineered.
- The first issue I have is that the whole front looks like a shot trap (between the hull and turret).
- Second issue is that they have 2 different point defence guns, 12.7mm in the forward turret and 7.62mm on the turret roof, this increases its logistics requirements and becomes problematic once you add the 4+ types of ammunition it carries for the main gun.
- Third issue, what is the point to it carrying a separate loitering munition when by definition it is one giant loitering munition itself.
Fourth issue, the fourth crew position is pointless especially if as some say it can be used for a company commander or drone operator, are those seriously two roles that should be in the nose of an MBT?

The big positive for it is the main gun, it has been well developed and offers significant improvement over the L2's main gun and I think it is time the Leopard design upgrades were rolled into a modern chassis.

It's a German tank, of course it is over engineered. If the Germans plan to upgrade their Leo2s I think they will begin to produce the Leo2 The Next Generation. The bigger main gun is a good idea, but is it necessary to do it? It also depends on what the Russian do with their T-14 Armata and if it is so good as what the Russians are claiming.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/leopard-2ng.htm
 
It's a German tank, of course it is over engineered. If the Germans plan to upgrade their Leo2s I think they will begin to produce the Leo2 The Next Generation. The bigger main gun is a good idea, but is it necessary to do it? It also depends on what the Russian do with their T-14 Armata and if it is so good as what the Russians are claiming.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/leopard-2ng.htm

I am a great fan of the Leopard 2 but it is in it 8th major variant (Assuming you don't count the offshoot prototypes like the L2-140, E, Imp etc) and it is almost 45 years old, I think it is probably time for a refresh and they at least rolled out an L3-A1 incorporating all the bolt on upgrades and technology/material enhancements developed in the last 40 years into a new chassis.

As for the T-14, name one time the Russians haven't sold their latest and greatest weapon as the greatest thing since sliced bread only for it to turn up in the hands of some dictator's army as a smoking wreck on the battlefield.

I give you exhibit "A"
T90, Greatest thing since sliced bread
 
My favorite MBT is the Israeli Merkava when it is also an IFV. The Leo2 is a great tank, but as what you said, Monty. It has been around for awhile now.

I think everybody who have purchased Russian tanks regret it now, but the design flaw of the Russian tanks (T-64, T72, T-80, and the T-90) have been known since the early 1980s when the Israeli forces clashed with Syrian forces in Lebanon. The wars in Chechnya, Georgia, the first Gulf War and the second Gulf War confirms the problems with the Russian tanks.

Is the T-14 Armata better than the other Russian tanks? Maybe, I don't know, but they will have a huge problem to sell their stuff. Another problem is how the Russians are using their tanks and other vehicles. I really questioning the Russian military training based on how they are operating.
 
My favorite MBT is the Israeli Merkava when it is also an IFV. The Leo2 is a great tank, but as what you said, Monty. It has been around for awhile now.

I think everybody who have purchased Russian tanks regret it now, but the design flaw of the Russian tanks (T-64, T72, T-80, and the T-90) have been known since the early 1980s when the Israeli forces clashed with Syrian forces in Lebanon. The wars in Chechnya, Georgia, the first Gulf War and the second Gulf War confirms the problems with the Russian tanks.

Is the T-14 Armata better than the other Russian tanks? Maybe, I don't know, but they will have a huge problem to sell their stuff. Another problem is how the Russians are using their tanks and other vehicles. I really questioning the Russian military training based on how they are operating.

I think this explains what we are seeing in terms of Russian armour usage...

All metal no manpower
 
My favorite MBT is the Israeli Merkava when it is also an IFV. The Leo2 is a great tank, but as what you said, Monty. It has been around for awhile now.

I think everybody who have purchased Russian tanks regret it now, but the design flaw of the Russian tanks (T-64, T72, T-80, and the T-90) have been known since the early 1980s when the Israeli forces clashed with Syrian forces in Lebanon. The wars in Chechnya, Georgia, the first Gulf War and the second Gulf War confirms the problems with the Russian tanks.

Is the T-14 Armata better than the other Russian tanks? Maybe, I don't know, but they will have a huge problem to sell their stuff. Another problem is how the Russians are using their tanks and other vehicles. I really questioning the Russian military training based on how they are operating.

I still prefer the L2-A7 but if I had to choose an alternative it would probably be the Challenger II.

As far as Russian tanks go I think it fair to say that the people buying them are not buying them for armoured warfare but rather population control and very few peasant uprisings are armed with copious amounts of modern ATGMs.
 
I still prefer the L2-A7 but if I had to choose an alternative it would probably be the Challenger II.

.


During the 2003 invasion of Iraq the Challenger 2 tanks suffered no tank losses to enemy fire, although one was penetrated by an IED. This was, at the time, unprotected by Dorchester armour. The driver was injured. In one encounter within the urban area a Challenger 2 came under attack from irregular forces with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades. The driver's sight was damaged and while attempting to back away under the commander's directions, the other sights were damaged and the tank threw its tracks entering a ditch. It was hit directly by fourteen rocket propelled grenades from close range and a MILAN anti-tank missile. The crew survived remaining safe within the tank until the tank was recovered for repairs, the worst damage being to the sighting system. It was back in operation six hours later after repairs. One Challenger 2 operating near Basra survived being hit by 70 RPGs in another incident.

I wonder how the Challenger 2 would stand up against Israels Merkava 5
 
During the 2003 invasion of Iraq the Challenger 2 tanks suffered no tank losses to enemy fire, although one was penetrated by an IED. This was, at the time, unprotected by Dorchester armour. The driver was injured. In one encounter within the urban area a Challenger 2 came under attack from irregular forces with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades. The driver's sight was damaged and while attempting to back away under the commander's directions, the other sights were damaged and the tank threw its tracks entering a ditch. It was hit directly by fourteen rocket propelled grenades from close range and a MILAN anti-tank missile. The crew survived remaining safe within the tank until the tank was recovered for repairs, the worst damage being to the sighting system. It was back in operation six hours later after repairs. One Challenger 2 operating near Basra survived being hit by 70 RPGs in another incident.

I wonder how the Challenger 2 would stand up against Israels Merkava 5

My main issue with the Merkava is that no matter what you think of Palestinians no one can claim they are a cutting edge fighting force, it is an MBT that mostly goes up against rock throwers, the odd Molotov cocktail, a few mostly home built RPGs, on paper it looks good but it has never had a serious first world encounter.

The one I don't know how to rank is the M1A2 SEP I read great things and bad things, it's combat record is excellent but it also seems rather fragile.

I don't rate any Russian tank as I am tired of hearing about the over-hyped bits of scrap metal only to find them smoldering hulk's on the world's battlefields loaded with second rate western equipment and I wouldn't trust a Chinese MBT not to be held together by tinfoil and used chewing gum.
I have had to deal with enough Chinese heavy machinery to know that Quality Control is not something the Chinese understand while cutting corners is a specialty.
 
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I like the Merkava because it can take an infantry squad so it is also an IFV, it is a two in one kind of vehicle.

I don't think there is a huge difference between the latest Western build MBTs. It is highly unlikely the Abrams, The Challenger, the Leopard, the Korean K2, and the Merkava will face each other in an armed conflict. It also depends on how good and well trained the crews are.

I think the Russians will face a huge problem to sell their MBTs when the entire world can see what happens to them in Ukraine. India might regret buying the T90.

Chinese tanks are more or less copies of the Russian tanks so I guess they have the same design flaw.
 
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