Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims - Page 5




 
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Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
 
June 6th, 2013  
RusCan2013
 
Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1ovdA1VZ-c"]Jew Settlers Stoning Palestine Christian Children walking to school - YouTube[/ame]

I understand you want to be reasonable, Monty B... I do too. I understand both sides of this conflict did bad things. But, throwing stones at children...

It makes me really mad especially because I come from a very anti-Semitic society myself, originally, Russia. Over there, if you go out wearing a yarmulke, you can get beat up. in some parts of the country, you may even be killed. If anybody should know about racism and discrimination and mistreatment and hatred and violence, it's the Jews, they have been victims of it for so long in many different countries. So, why do they now choose to practice it themselves?
June 6th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
It comes back to rather obvious analogies like, "Did the fact that Hitler achieved almost 100% employment make him one of the good guys"?... No it didn't, not even vaguely.
No but not every German was Hitler either.
June 6th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RusCan2013
I understand you want to be reasonable, Monty B... I do too. I understand both sides of this conflict did bad things. But, throwing stones at children...

It makes me really mad especially because I come from a very anti-Semitic society myself, originally, Russia. Over there, if you go out wearing a yarmulke, you can get beat up. in some parts of the country, you may even be killed. If anybody should know about racism and discrimination and mistreatment and hatred and violence, it's the Jews, they have been victims of it for so long in many different countries. So, why do they now choose to practice it themselves?
I rarely try to be reasonable on this matter I am just offering a defense in the role of devils advocate as Spike pointed out earlier.

One thing I would also suggest is that it is wrong to confuse a dislike for Israel's policies with antisemitism as the two are not the same unless you believe Israel represents all of Judaism and I am pretty certain it doesn't.
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Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
June 6th, 2013  
Hawkeye
 
I will say that I am in line with MontyB

If you are prejudiced it is difficult to be objective. One has to accept that one's opponent sometimes has the right to do what they do. Outright violence is never justified, but your opponent also has the right to defend themselves. Within the walled boundaries of the law - of course.
June 6th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
No but not every German was Hitler either.
I did say quite clearly, "One of the good guys" not all of them. Implying that, an individual having helped a little old lady across the road does not excuse the him, should that helper be found to run a child slavery ring. This ideal works for individuals and Nations alike.

Of course there are less guilty Israelis, even totally ignorant Israelis, but overall, the nation of Israel is just "toxic", there's no other word for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
I will say that I am in line with MontyB

If you are prejudiced it is difficult to be objective. One has to accept that one's opponent sometimes has the right to do what they do. Outright violence is never justified, but your opponent also has the right to defend themselves. Within the walled boundaries of the law - of course.
Prejudice is merely the combination of one's experience and knowledge, everyone is prejudiced just to a greater or lesser degree depending on their experience. Most people are prejudiced against mass murderers and child molesters, but that in no way can be construed as a bad thing. Yes I know, their mothers may love them, but that really doesn't come into the equation.

As I have said here a number of times, over the last 20-25 years my opinion of Israel has done a 180degree turn about, and that was as a result of my objectivity, definitely not my prejudices.
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Sorry about the breaks, I've been interrupted twice, The neighbour's chimney was (is) alight
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June 6th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Prejudice is merely the combination of one's experience and knowledge, everyone is prejudiced just to a greater or lesser degree depending on their experience. Most people are prejudiced against mass murderers and child molesters, but that in no way can be construed as a bad thing. Yes I know, their mothers may love them, but that really doesn't come into the equation.
True however the fact that most people are prejudiced against criminals does not make all criminals the same, my desire to punish mass murderers and child molesters is no where near the same as it is to punish jay walkers and speeders crimes of which most of us are guilty of.

In this case no matter what you think of the Israeli occupation there is still the possibility that the person being arrested may have actually deserved it and there is nothing in the video provided to tell us what the real story was.

I am not arguing anything here but the information that was in that one video separate from every other video that has been posted.
June 6th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Let me put it this way then.

There is not a single justifiable, legal or moral reason why Israel should occupy any part of Palestine,... therefore everything they do there is illegal by default.

Illegally occupying the land of another in direct contravention of a dozen or more International Laws, against the wish of it's people is about as bad as it gets especially when we see how it has been achieved and the practices used to maintain it.

No, I'm not going to go soft on them, and if it were your country I don't think that you would either. It's just too easy to for people to look the other way because it does not directly affect them.
June 7th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Let me put it this way then.

There is not a single justifiable, legal or moral reason why Israel should occupy any part of Palestine,... therefore everything they do there is illegal by default.

Illegally occupying the land of another in direct contravention of a dozen or more International Laws, against the wish of it's people is about as bad as it gets especially when we see how it has been achieved and the practices used to maintain it.

No, I'm not going to go soft on them, and if it were your country I don't think that you would either. It's just too easy to for people to look the other way because it does not directly affect them.
True but they do occupy Palestine and as such are responsible for its security therefore they must police it.

Just to back that up...The occupying power has the duty to restore and maintain public order and safety in the territories controlled by its forces, in accordance with Article 43 of the Hague Regulations.

In order to carry out this duty, the occupying power is entitled to "take such measures of control and security in regard to protected persons as may be necessary as a result of the war", in the language of Article 27 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Such measures may include the use of force. However any use of force in circumstances outside combat, whether by soldiers or police officers, must be consistent with international law enforcement standards, including the 1979 UN Code of Conduct for Law Enforcement Officials (Code of Conduct) and the 1990 UN Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials (Basic Principles).

Article 3 of the Code of Conduct reflects the principles of necessity and proportionality: law enforcement officials "may use force only when strictly necessary and to the extent required for the performance of their duty." The Commentary to this article specifies that the use of firearms is an extreme measure:


" Every effort should be made to exclude the use of firearms, especially against children. In general, firearms should not be used except when a suspected offender offers armed resistance or otherwise jeopardizes the lives of others and less extreme measures are not sufficient to restrain or apprehend the suspected offender. In every instance in which a firearm is discharged, a report should be made promptly to the competent authorities."


According to the Basic Principles, law enforcement officials faced by disorders, including violent assemblies,


"shall not use firearms against persons except in self-defence or defence of others against the imminent threat of death or serious injury, to prevent the perpetration of a particularly serious crime involving grave threat to life, to arrest a person presenting such a danger and resisting their authority, or to prevent his or her escape, and only when less extreme means are insufficient to achieve these objectives. In any event, intentional lethal use of firearms may only be made when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life."
June 7th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
If you are there illegally you may have obligations, (all of which the Israelis flout anyway), but as far as I'm concerned, you have no legal "Rights".

It's like so much of the PC Bullsh!t, where an armed intruder falls down the stairs in your house can sue you for his injuries and trauma etc.
June 7th, 2013  
RusCan2013
 
MontyB, I am sorry, but in Canada, no riot police would come after unarmed people with M-16th, or whatever was it those soldiers were carrying.

Hell, we had riots here in Vancouver not all that long ago, the Stanley Cup Riot



None of the cops were toting submachine guns



And I know some of the guys who were out there that night, on the front lines. My neighbour is in our local RCMP detachment, he and some of the other cops from here (Richmond), along with more from the suburbs, Mounties and Delta PD, were sent Downtown to help VPD restore order. None of those good men (and some women) threatened people with assault rifles to get their way. They used mostly good old truncheons

and dogs

hehe

One guy, I saw, in the photos, that had what looks like a rifle

That's in the photos. Haven't seen any cops carrying those on the streets back then myself (I was there when it went down, I was working a as security guard in the mall on West Georgia street where most of the riot happened lol I always am in the ****ing right place in right time lmao).

Don't compare the incomparable, Canada is not Israel. Thank God.
 


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