Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims - Page 3




 
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Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
 
May 16th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
We probably would these days, the problem is the land we stole (and we did steal it, trail of tears and all that) started to happen 400 years ago. Its a bit late to give it back. The Damage is already done.

Nonetheless, our treatment of the Native Americans remains one of the darker moments in our history and its not something we Americans are especially proud of.

I don't a single American who would justify our treatment of the native Americans (except the bigots and the crazies) and its certainly not behavior Israel should emulate or find justification for in its own deplorable treatment of its neighbors.
So, if Israel stays for another 300 years, then its OK?

I ask that question because one of my first posts on this forum was:
"How far is one allowed to go back in history to prove he's right. And who has the authority to set such a date?"

I also said:
"You cannot look at history with the eyes of today"

otherwise we have to tear down many statues because of commited war crimes.
May 17th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
So, if Israel stays for another 300 years, then its OK?
As you well know, Israel was not colonised under the Internationally recognised "Doctrine of discovery" and cannot be claimed as a colony as were USA and Australia etc.

You are perfectly aware of all this but are just baiting.
May 17th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
So, if Israel stays for another 300 years, then its OK?

I ask that question because one of my first posts on this forum was:
"How far is one allowed to go back in history to prove he's right. And who has the authority to set such a date?"

I also said:
"You cannot look at history with the eyes of today"

otherwise we have to tear down many statues because of commited war crimes.
Umm I am not sure you have a right to argue this as you are basing your justifications on a 2000 year old fairy tale then conveniently denying everything between then and 1920 and then only accepting selected documents after that time.

Old statement about the use of stones in glasshouses springs to mind here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Of course we realise that real scientific research means nothing in Israel unless the findings fit your rather peculiar version of history gleaned almost exclusively from Jewish "scholars"
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Finally something we can disagree on, there are many fine "Jewish" scholars I hope you mean "selected" Jewish scholars I really don't like painting with too wide a brush, further to this if you read the works of many Israeli archaeologist's you will find they too are struggling to validate the "recorded" history and for the most part are honest about it.
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Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
May 17th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Finally something we can disagree on, there are many fine "Jewish" scholars I hope you mean "selected" Jewish scholars I really don't like painting with too wide a brush, further to this if you read the works of many Israeli archaeologist's you will find they too are struggling to validate the "recorded" history and for the most part are honest about it.
Sorry to be such a pain in the @rse Monty, but I must disagree that we have a disagreement. Hence my use of the quotation marks around the word "scholars" implying that I was speaking of those same nut case religious scholars who made up those fairy stories you were talking about.
May 17th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Sorry to be such a pain in the @rse Monty, but I must disagree that we have a disagreement. Hence my use of the quotation marks around the word "scholars" implying that I was speaking of those same nut case religious scholars who made up those fairy stories you were talking about.
Agreed but that has been a problem with all religious science, someone once put it that science was the process of finding an answer to a question where as religious science is about finding the question when you already know the answer (God did it).
May 17th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Agreed but that has been a problem with all religious science, someone once put it that science was the process of finding an answer to a question where as religious science is about finding the question when you already know the answer (God did it).
Yes, I think I've already posted a cartoon regarding this.

May 17th, 2013  
mmarsh
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
So, if Israel stays for another 300 years, then its OK?

I ask that question because one of my first posts on this forum was:
"How far is one allowed to go back in history to prove he's right. And who has the authority to set such a date?"

I also said:
"You cannot look at history with the eyes of today"

otherwise we have to tear down many statues because of commited war crimes.
The difference is that the original victims of the land theft in Palestine are still alive while those in the USA have been dead for centuries.

And frankly, given how the world (including the USA) is being to lose patience with Israel, I don't think Israel is going to be around in 300 years time unless they smarten up and amend their behavior. Countries that defy the world never last long.
May 17th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Umm I am not sure you have a right to argue this as you are basing your justifications on a 2000 year old fairy tale then conveniently denying everything between then and 1920 and then only accepting selected documents after that time.

Old statement about the use of stones in glasshouses springs to mind here.
I think that fairytale is more realistic than you imagine. Do you know Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus, better known as Pompey? He was the one who ended the slave revolt led by Spartacus. He also conquered the Jewish kingdom (Judaea and Galilee), it was called Pompey's War (the subjugation of Judaea 63 BCE). Wars between the Jews and Romans: the subjugation of Judaea (63 BCE). BTW, there was no mention of Palestinians at that time. Not the people, language nor religion.


bigger image here.


bigger image here.

Or read this : Israel (931-724) , not every evidence comes from the bible. (Sorry, no word of Palestinians)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
The difference is that the original victims of the land theft in Palestine are still alive while those in the USA have been dead for centuries.

And frankly, given how the world (including the USA) is being to lose patience with Israel, I don't think Israel is going to be around in 300 years time unless they smarten up and amend their behavior. Countries that defy the world never last long.
I don't think so if you look at how the Arabs/muslims are killing each other. Within a few years Israel will be an energy exporting country and a much more reliable energy supplier than Russia and the Arabs for Europe. The US is desperate to get an Iron Dome system and more and more countries are fed up with Palestine using development assistance money to pay wages to terrorists locked up in Israeli jails. You'll be amased what is going on behind the curtains (even in the Arab world), otherwise they would have dropped Israel a long time ago.
May 18th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
. He also conquered the Jewish kingdom (Judaea and Galilee), it was called Pompey's War (the subjugation of Judaea 63 BCE). Wars between the Jews and Romans: the subjugation of Judaea (63 BCE). BTW, there was no mention of Palestinians at that time. Not the people, language nor religion.
Another example of frantic deliberate distortion and misunderstanding, so easily disproved.
Quote:
The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece.[5] Herodotus wrote of a 'district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region.
Where on earth did you get the childishly stupid idea that because something is not mentioned in one report or document, it could, or does not exist?
May 27th, 2013  
Hawkeye
 
Without going back to the Old Testament stories of "Philistines" which gave its name to Palestine, let us simply note that the Palestinians' own national consciousness goes back to the early 20th century. In 1911 an Arabic-language newspaper, Filasteen, was established in Jaffa by two Greek Orthodox Palestinian nephews - Isa Daoud Isa & Yusef al Isa. The newspaper was opposed to Zionist immigration and did advocate for Arab nationalism. Filasteen described its readers as "Palestinians".

Filastin by itself could be considered a historical document which refuted the Zionist claims; such claims alleged that the Palestinians lacked a cultural, social and athletic background. Examining Filastin one could confirm that prior to 1948 there were some 65 social athletic clubs in Palestine. Approximately 55 of them were members of the Arab Palestine Sports Federation, which was established in 1931 and re-established in 1944, and included athletic clubs from all over Palestine.

The Palestinians were, in other words, not just "Arabs", just as the Danes are not just Europeans. That the Palestinians relatively late developed a national consciousness, do not make their cause inferior or characterize an anomaly. It is generally accepted that, for instance Australians' national consciousness was created on the battlefield of Gallipoli in the First World War. In any case the Palestinians pressed hard to gain their independence immediately after the same war.

The core of the Zionist narrative is obviously a religiously motivated (but basically self-proclaimed) idea of ​​the Jews "right" to a state in Palestine. Zionism was a child of the 19th century thinking about the incompatibility of the races and the fact that the Jewish position in Western societies has always historically been problematic. The history of Israel is therefore the story of a martyred people who finally found peace and relative safety in a small, desolate and barren spot in the desert, and through diligence and perseverance transformed into a fertile landscape. It's a good story and indeed not without some truth value.

Zionists have since argued that the claim that "the land without a people" should be understood to mean that even if people lived in the area, no Palestinian people existed. This is of course a headless claim. Israel was created through a long-term and targeted, albeit ruthless, efforts of the Zionist movement and this work also involved a deliberate obstruction of the existing (Arab) populations legitimate claim to independence.
 


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