Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims

[VDKMS]

We probably would these days, the problem is the land we stole (and we did steal it, trail of tears and all that) started to happen 400 years ago. Its a bit late to give it back. The Damage is already done.

Nonetheless, our treatment of the Native Americans remains one of the darker moments in our history and its not something we Americans are especially proud of.

I don't a single American who would justify our treatment of the native Americans (except the bigots and the crazies) and its certainly not behavior Israel should emulate or find justification for in its own deplorable treatment of its neighbors.

So, if Israel stays for another 300 years, then its OK?

I ask that question because one of my first posts on this forum was:

"How far is one allowed to go back in history to prove he's right. And who has the authority to set such a date?"​

I also said:

"You cannot look at history with the eyes of today"​

otherwise we have to tear down many statues because of commited war crimes.

 

[senojekips]

So, if Israel stays for another 300 years, then its OK?

As you well know, Israel was not colonised under the Internationally recognised "Doctrine of discovery" and cannot be claimed as a colony as were USA and Australia etc.

You are perfectly aware of all this but are just baiting.

 

[MontyB]

So, if Israel stays for another 300 years, then its OK?

I ask that question because one of my first posts on this forum was:

"How far is one allowed to go back in history to prove he's right. And who has the authority to set such a date?"
​

I also said:

"You cannot look at history with the eyes of today"
​

otherwise we have to tear down many statues because of commited war crimes.

Umm I am not sure you have a right to argue this as you are basing your justifications on a 2000 year old fairy tale then conveniently denying everything between then and 1920 and then only accepting selected documents after that time.

Old statement about the use of stones in glasshouses springs to mind here.

Of course we realise that real scientific research means nothing in Israel unless the findings fit your rather peculiar version of history gleaned almost exclusively from Jewish "scholars"
.

Finally something we can disagree on, there are many fine "Jewish" scholars I hope you mean "selected" Jewish scholars I really don't like painting with too wide a brush, further to this if you read the works of many Israeli archaeologist's you will find they too are struggling to validate the "recorded" history and for the most part are honest about it.

 

[senojekips]

Finally something we can disagree on, there are many fine "Jewish" scholars I hope you mean "selected" Jewish scholars I really don't like painting with too wide a brush, further to this if you read the works of many Israeli archaeologist's you will find they too are struggling to validate the "recorded" history and for the most part are honest about it.

Sorry to be such a pain in the @rse Monty, but I must disagree that we have a disagreement. Hence my use of the quotation marks around the word "scholars" implying that I was speaking of those same nut case religious scholars who made up those fairy stories you were talking about.

 

[MontyB]

Sorry to be such a pain in the @rse Monty, but I must disagree that we have a disagreement. Hence my use of the quotation marks around the word "scholars" implying that I was speaking of those same nut case religious scholars who made up those fairy stories you were talking about.

Agreed but that has been a problem with all religious science, someone once put it that science was the process of finding an answer to a question where as religious science is about finding the question when you already know the answer (God did it).

 

[senojekips]

Agreed but that has been a problem with all religious science, someone once put it that science was the process of finding an answer to a question where as religious science is about finding the question when you already know the answer (God did it).

Yes, I think I've already posted a cartoon regarding this.

 

[mmarsh]

So, if Israel stays for another 300 years, then its OK?

I ask that question because one of my first posts on this forum was:

"How far is one allowed to go back in history to prove he's right. And who has the authority to set such a date?"​

I also said:

"You cannot look at history with the eyes of today"​

otherwise we have to tear down many statues because of commited war crimes.

The difference is that the original victims of the land theft in Palestine are still alive while those in the USA have been dead for centuries.

And frankly, given how the world (including the USA) is being to lose patience with Israel, I don't think Israel is going to be around in 300 years time unless they smarten up and amend their behavior. Countries that defy the world never last long.

 

[VDKMS]

Umm I am not sure you have a right to argue this as you are basing your justifications on a 2000 year old fairy tale then conveniently denying everything between then and 1920 and then only accepting selected documents after that time.

Old statement about the use of stones in glasshouses springs to mind here.

I think that fairytale is more realistic than you imagine. Do you know Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus, better known as Pompey? He was the one who ended the slave revolt led by Spartacus. He also conquered the Jewish kingdom (Judaea and Galilee), it was called Pompey's War (the subjugation of Judaea 63 BCE). Wars between the Jews and Romans: the subjugation of Judaea (63 BCE). BTW, there was no mention of Palestinians at that time. Not the people, language nor religion.

bigger image here.

bigger image here.

Or read this : Israel (931-724) , not every evidence comes from the bible. (Sorry, no word of Palestinians)

The difference is that the original victims of the land theft in Palestine are still alive while those in the USA have been dead for centuries.

And frankly, given how the world (including the USA) is being to lose patience with Israel, I don't think Israel is going to be around in 300 years time unless they smarten up and amend their behavior. Countries that defy the world never last long.

I don't think so if you look at how the Arabs/muslims are killing each other. Within a few years Israel will be an energy exporting country and a much more reliable energy supplier than Russia and the Arabs for Europe. The US is desperate to get an Iron Dome system and more and more countries are fed up with Palestine using development assistance money to pay wages to terrorists locked up in Israeli jails. You'll be amased what is going on behind the curtains (even in the Arab world), otherwise they would have dropped Israel a long time ago.

 

[senojekips]

. He also conquered the Jewish kingdom (Judaea and Galilee), it was called Pompey's War (the subjugation of Judaea 63 BCE). Wars between the Jews and Romans: the subjugation of Judaea (63 BCE). BTW, there was no mention of Palestinians at that time. Not the people, language nor religion.

Another example of frantic deliberate distortion and misunderstanding, so easily disproved.

The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece.[5] Herodotus wrote of a 'district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region.

Where on earth did you get the childishly stupid idea that because something is not mentioned in one report or document, it could, or does not exist?

 

[Hawkeye]

Without going back to the Old Testament stories of "Philistines" which gave its name to Palestine, let us simply note that the Palestinians' own national consciousness goes back to the early 20th century. In 1911 an Arabic-language newspaper, Filasteen, was established in Jaffa by two Greek Orthodox Palestinian nephews - Isa Daoud Isa & Yusef al Isa. The newspaper was opposed to Zionist immigration and did advocate for Arab nationalism. Filasteen described its readers as "Palestinians".

[FONT=&quot]Filastin by itself could be considered a historical document which refuted the Zionist claims; such claims alleged that the Palestinians lacked a cultural, social and athletic background. Examining Filastin one could confirm that prior to 1948 there were some 65 social athletic clubs in Palestine. Approximately 55 of them were members of the Arab Palestine Sports Federation, which was established in 1931 and re-established in 1944, and included athletic clubs from all over Palestine.

[/FONT] The Palestinians were, in other words, not just "Arabs", just as the Danes are not just Europeans. That the Palestinians relatively late developed a national consciousness, do not make their cause inferior or characterize an anomaly. It is generally accepted that, for instance Australians' national consciousness was created on the battlefield of Gallipoli in the First World War. In any case the Palestinians pressed hard to gain their independence immediately after the same war.

The core of the Zionist narrative is obviously a religiously motivated (but basically self-proclaimed) idea of ​​the Jews "right" to a state in Palestine. Zionism was a child of the 19th century thinking about the incompatibility of the races and the fact that the Jewish position in Western societies has always historically been problematic. The history of Israel is therefore the story of a martyred people who finally found peace and relative safety in a small, desolate and barren spot in the desert, and through diligence and perseverance transformed into a fertile landscape. It's a good story and indeed not without some truth value.

Zionists[FONT=&quot] have since argued that the claim that "the land without a people" should be understood to mean that even if people lived in the area, no Palestinian people existed. This is of course a headless claim. Israel was created through a long-term and targeted, albeit ruthless, efforts of the Zionist movement and this work also involved a deliberate obstruction of the existing (Arab) populations legitimate claim to independence.[/FONT]

 

[Hawkeye]

Without going back to the Old Testament stories of "Philistines" which gave its name to Palestine, let us simply note that the Palestinians' own national consciousness goes back to the early 20th century. In 1911 an Arabic-language newspaper, Filasteen, was established in Jaffa by two Greek Orthodox Palestinian nephews - Isa Daoud Isa & Yusef al Isa. The newspaper was opposed to Zionist immigration and did advocate for Arab nationalism. Filasteen described its readers as "Palestinians". And gradually the other Arab newspapers began to use the word Palestinians.

Filastin by itself could be considered a historical document which refuted the Zionist claims; such claims alleged that the Palestinians lacked a cultural and social background. Examining Filastin one could confirm that prior to 1948 there were some 65 social athletic clubs in Palestine. Approximately 55 of them were members of the Arab Palestine Sports Federation, which was established in 1931 and re-established in 1944, and included athletic clubs from all over Palestine.

The Palestinians were, in other words, not just "Arabs", just as the Danes are not just Europeans. That the Palestinians relatively late developed a national consciousness, do not make their cause inferior or characterize an anomaly. It is generally accepted that, for instance Australians' national consciousness was created on the battlefield of Gallipoli in the First World War. In any case the Palestinians pressed hard to gain their independence immediately after the same war.

The core of the Zionist narrative is obviously a religiously motivated (but basically self-proclaimed) idea of ​​the Jews "right" to a state in Palestine. Zionism was a child of the 19th century thinking about the incompatibility of the races and the fact that the Jewish position in Western societies has always historically been problematic. The history of Israel is therefore the story of a martyred people who finally found peace and relative safety in a small, desolate and barren spot in the desert, and through diligence and perseverance transformed into a fertile landscape. It's a good story and indeed not without some truth value. But it is and will remain a story!

Zionists have since argued that the claim that "the land without a people" should be understood to mean that even if people lived in the area, no Palestinian people existed. This is of course a headless claim.

 

[RusCan2013]

Your "soldiers" fight with guns against unarmed women
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjYmOUArxP4"]Israeli Soldiers chasing Palestinian girl and beating her - YouTube[/ame]
and you call others aggressors...

Israel = Pathetic shits. Too bad our Harper is a fundie Christian and so has to support you f**kers because his Bible tells him so.

Seriously, the ones in the video shouldn't wear military uniforms. It's an embarrassment to soldiers everywhere. Even me, I'm a reservist, but still.

 

[MontyB]

It sort of reminds me of the old jokes about how many xxxxx's does it take to screw in a light bulb, only in this case it is how many Israelis does it take to catch a Palestinian girl.

Ok since we have absolutely no functional defense in this case outside of VDKMS popping in to tell us it didn't happen I guess I will give it a shot...
1) We do not know why they were chasing her.
2) I did not see any beating I saw a woman being dragged off who was clearly resisting arrest, the closest thing to violence I saw was the guy that pushed the other woman out of the way but hell watch police in action around the world and you will see that.

So in conclusion without knowing more about the action going on around the video it is impossible to draw too many conclusions she may have just detonated a bomb or she could have been picking flowers all we have is a snapshot.

If you watch riot police in action anywhere in the world you will see the exact same things going on.


Disclaimer: I am just focusing on the event here and not on the over all picture about legitimacy etc and only because it takes two to have a proper discussion and our Israeli fan boys have run off after discovering that "we can do what ever we like because god said so" doesn't work here.

 

[RusCan2013]

It sort of reminds me of the old jokes about how many xxxxx's does it take to screw in a light bulb, only in this case it is how many Israelis does it take to catch a Palestinian girl.

Ok since we have absolutely no functional defense in this case outside of VDKMS popping in to tell us it didn't happen I guess I will give it a shot...
1) We do not know why they were chasing her.
2) I did not see any beating I saw a woman being dragged off who was clearly resisting arrest, the closest thing to violence I saw was the guy that pushed the other woman out of the way but hell watch police in action around the world and you will see that.

So in conclusion without knowing more about the action going on around the video it is impossible to draw too many conclusions she may have just detonated a bomb or she could have been picking flowers all we have is a snapshot.

If you watch riot police in action anywhere in the world you will see the exact same things going on.


Disclaimer: I am just focusing on the event here and not on the over all picture about legitimacy etc and only because it takes two to have a proper discussion and our Israeli fan boys have run off after discovering that "we can do what ever we like because god said so" doesn't work here.

Oh, what could that girl have been doing that she deserved to get arrested? And, yes, why does it take a ****ing platoon of IDF to take her, one unarmed woman, into custody???

Give me a break.

 

[MontyB]

Again without knowing the events leading up to this you cant tell whether the arrest was justified or not.

Here ya go answer me one question:
Why were they chasing her?

If they felt she had thrown a Molotov cocktail at them earlier then perhaps she should be arrested, if she was just passing by and they decided to be tough and bravely throw a squad of troops at a Palestinian kid without waiting for air and armoured support then you may conclude that she is in the right but without knowing that one bit of information then it is really hard to judge.

As to the actions during the arrest we I would suggest that if Canadian police thought you were a threat they would not handle you any differently than these guys handled her.

As I have said this is not a fight I really have any interest in as I like most people are appalled by Israeli tactics but someone has to put in a counter argument just to keep things ticking over.

 

[senojekips]

Again without knowing the events leading up to this you cant tell whether the arrest was justified or not.

Here ya go answer me one question:
Why were they chasing her?

Because she was closest when they stopped?
She was really the only Arab within easy reach reach that appeared to be participating in the disturbance. (The blokes wearing helmets appeared to be cameramen)
She really didn't have a good escape plan like the person in the blue shirt.
She is a girl and therefore least likely to be really hard to catch.
She was just about the smallest person they could see.

The troops all congregated around after she was caught because they caught no one and wanted to be seen as "we helped".

My guess is that she was a stone thrower, and the fact that other riot police do it is no excuse.

 

[MontyB]

Because she was closest when they stopped?
She was really the only Arab within easy reach reach that appeared to be participating in the disturbance. (The blokes wearing helmets appeared to be cameramen)
She really didn't have a good escape plan like the person in the blue shirt.
She is a girl and therefore least likely to be really hard to catch.
She was just about the smallest person they could see.

The troops all congregated around after she was caught because they caught no one and wanted to be seen as "we helped".

My guess is that she was a stone thrower, and the fact that other riot police do it is no excuse.

While your reasons may well be right it is still as you say just a guess and to be honest I did not see any beating in fact I thought the guy that caught her showed a fair amount of restraint (maybe because of the cameras present).

As far as what riot police do or don't do my point is that I think it is wrong to hold up the actions of one group as wrong if we accept it as justifiable by others and go as far as train them to carry out those actions.

Why the Israeli's need a squad of armed troops to catch a stone thrower is of course another argument but in this case there simply is not enough data to draw any real conclusions, you know my views on Israel and the Palestinian conflict in general but much as I do not believe Palestinians are all terrorists I do not believe all Israelis are bastards either.

 

[senojekips]

OK MontyB, so you like to play the devil's advocate?

In a singular case such as we have posted above, some of your concerns may be worthy of consideration, however I feel that an answer much closer to reality can be reached by viewing it along with other information in the same vein.

I'm not going to waste my time and bore the tits of you by posting literally dozens of supporting videos, but all I say is, "Go and Google "Israeli Soldier(s) speak out" and other such searches along those lines, and it very quickly becomes apparent that virtually all IDF interactions with Palestinian civillians are illegal for any number of reasons.

Deliberate Provocation.

Massive over reaction.

Just plain "Being bastards" for fun. (like declaring 24 hour curfews on days when Palestinian children are due to do final school examinations)

Enforcing of Laws that are illegal under international law.

And of course the simple fact that they should not even be there.

I could go on,...

As far as I'm concerned animals like this are not worthy of people picking though the debris of their actions trying to justify it.

 

[MontyB]

OK MontyB, so you like to play the devil's advocate?

Well someone has to if for no other reason than it fills in a day and lets face it to date none of the pro-Israeli lobby has managed anything more than a denial defence even when presented with undeniable evidence.

In a singular case such as we have posted above, some of your concerns may be worthy of consideration, however I feel that an answer much closer to reality can be reached by viewing it along with other information in the same vein.

Which is in part my case here not everything is bad or unjustifiable and even if I believe that Israels over all cause is wrong I can not in that particular case using that video as evidence find those soldiers to be in the wrong, with more evidence that may change but then again it may not.

The biggest problem in these cases is that people lose their objectivity and even in cases where one side may be right the other always has to vilify them in some way or another.

Basically in this case (with the only evidence being that video) there may be valid cause to be chasing her but then you have cases like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0bdbA2Ka3Bo

where I can see no justifiable reason for that kind of behavior, forget the law there are standards of human decency that are missing in those cases.

As far as I'm concerned animals like this are not worthy of people picking though the debris of their actions trying to justify it.

Maybe maybe not but as I have pointed out in the past I don't like painting delicate items with a 4 inch brush.

 

[senojekips]

Well someone has to if for no other reason than it fills in a day and lets face it to date none of the pro-Israeli lobby has managed anything more than a denial defence even when presented with undeniable evidence.



Which is in part my case here not everything is bad or unjustifiable and even if I believe that Israels over all cause is wrong I can not in that particular case using that video as evidence find those soldiers to be in the wrong, with more evidence that may change but then again it may not.

The biggest problem in these cases is that people lose their objectivity and even in cases where one side may be right the other always has to vilify them in some way or another.

Basically in this case (with the only evidence being that video) there may be valid cause to be chasing her but then you have cases like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0bdbA2Ka3Bo

where I can see no justifiable reason for that kind of behavior, forget the law there are standards of human decency that are missing in those cases.



Maybe maybe not but as I have pointed out in the past I don't like painting delicate items with a 4 inch brush.

I agree with virtually every point, to a degree, but I also realise the danger of sowing the seeds of doubt where there is almost guaranteed to be no justifiable reason for their behaviour, based on other evidence. To me this is highlighted by the number of Jews who actively argue against it.

It comes back to rather obvious analogies like, "Did the fact that Hitler achieved almost 100% employment make him one of the good guys"?... No it didn't, not even vaguely.

The other point being, that in all honesty there is no way that this could be classified as a "delicate" matter. No more than the regimes of Pol Pot and Stalin etc. Yeah I know, the Israelis have not murdered and dispossessed as many, but they never had the numbers to start with. Their evil intent, and the continued (for 60 years+) deliberate flouting of international laws and conventions are of such enormity that they should forgo any rights to normal consideration.