Overlord: Would it have been successful without an Eastern Front? - Page 5




 
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September 13th, 2008  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topmaul
Considering the losses on the eastern front it's amazing the German Army functioned as well as it did. They never ran out of good NCOs until the end of the war. I believe a British General commented on that point.
It's because of the German tradition of mission-based orders, brought about in the 19th Century by the likes of Scharnhorst and Clausewitz. Read here for an overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_control
September 15th, 2008  
errol
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by perseus
Interesting comment, my Father had the same opinion of the prisoners of war they captured in Italy. A scruffy ramshackle bunch begging for a cigarette. I suppose those who surrendered were not the prime of the army like those first encountered on D-Day.
The Allies didn't face the prime of the German Army on D-Day. Thats a fact. Amazingly they still had trouble in various sectors.
September 16th, 2008  
perseus
 
 
Sorry errol poor pronunciation that's what I meant!
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September 17th, 2008  
Papashah41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by errol
The Allies didn't face the prime of the German Army on D-Day. Thats a fact. Amazingly they still had trouble in various sectors.

What would you consider to be the prime Nazi divisions. If you don't believe The leibstandarte and the Hitlerjugend divisions were prime what were they? Super Prime. What about the Hohenstauffen and Frundsberg divisions. What about Panzer Lehr. I could go on. I realize they weren't all there at the same time but within a week or two they were. What about the commanders Rommel for a short spell. Fritz Bayerlein. Fritz Witt. Kurt Meyer. Max Wunsche. Wilhelm Bittrich. Even Sepp Dietrich who wasn't that bright but he sure had guts. I dont understand your statement. If you can, please explain.
September 17th, 2008  
errol
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papashah41
What would you consider to be the prime Nazi divisions. If you don't believe The leibstandarte and the Hitlerjugend divisions were prime what were they? Super Prime. What about the Hohenstauffen and Frundsberg divisions. What about Panzer Lehr. I could go on. I realize they weren't all there at the same time but within a week or two they were. What about the commanders Rommel for a short spell. Fritz Witt. Kurt Meyer. Wilhelm Bittrich. Even Sepp Dietrich who wasn't that bright but he sure had guts. I dont understand your statement. If you can, please explain.
Panzer Lehr, a superb fighting division, attacked near Caen, on the left of 12th SS Panzer on the 9th June, not D-Day. They fought superbly to defend the town (ruins) of Tilly against the British. 75% of their troops were veterans and they were well equiped. Unfortunately, they took a terrible beating by the allied air force when forming up.

12th SS Panzer were good. 21st Panzer were disappointing. 2nd SS Panzer (Das Reich) were tough but arrived in Normandy later. They took a terrible beating from the Allied air force and naval guns.


The German Commanders were overall very good, Meyer was excellent, but......

Lieutenant-Colonel Kurt Kauffman, Operations Officer of Panzer Lehr stated that his chief worry concerned the performance of its commander, General Fritz Bayerlein: "He was a very good soldier, but he was worn out. In Normandy he showed himself nervous and weak".

and Meyer's Hitler Jugend was critical of Feuchtinger's units, in several battles.

Yes, there were some prime units there but they were thin on the ground as far as material and numbers were concerned. The Luftwaffe was virtually non-existent.

My comment was refering to the overall German Army in the west in 1944. It was not the Prime German Army of 1941. We wouldn't have had a snow flakes chance in Libya.

Read Max Hastings book "Overlord". The Germans fought superbly (overall) in Normandy even though they were eventually worn down by an enemy with overwhelming material and troop strength.
September 18th, 2008  
Papashah41
 
errol, I take your point. And they were quite thin on the ground. What impresses me most of all, is the leading from the front by their entire officer corps. They held the Allies for two and a half months and could have held them longer without Hitler's idiotic interference. But the point is, they did have prime units fighting in Normandy. Just, not enough. When I was quite a bit younger I remember talking with a Normandy vet at the neighborhood Legion. Legion's were a place for vets to drink, meet other vets and maybe eat, in that order. He was a Royal Winnipeg Rifle corporal in 1944. All I remember him saying was this. The Hitler youth division Fought harder than any soldier I had ever seen. They wouldn't surrender and they didn't expect us to surrender. They died screaming obcenities at us. They died like crazy men.
September 18th, 2008  
errol
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papashah41
errol, I take your point. And they were quite thin on the ground. What impresses me most of all, is the leading from the front by their entire officer corps. They held the Allies for two and a half months and could have held them longer without Hitler's idiotic interference. But the point is, they did have prime units fighting in Normandy. Just, not enough. When I was quite a bit younger I remember talking with a Normandy vet at the neighborhood Legion. Legion's were a place for vets to drink, meet other vets and maybe eat, in that order. He was a Royal Winnipeg Rifle corporal in 1944. All I remember him saying was this. The Hitler youth division Fought harder than any soldier I had ever seen. They wouldn't surrender and they didn't expect us to surrender. They died screaming obcenities at us. They died like crazy men.
How true!
 


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