Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
gladius said:
I seldom happen to fully agree with Gladius (though I often agree in part), but this is one of those times.
Ongoing Violence & Riots in France
I seldom happen to fully agree with Gladius (though I often agree in part), but this is one of those times.
03USMC
Active member
mmarsh said:
Actually most countries do not require Probable Cause to cause a person to produce Identification when requested by Law Enforcement.
Probable Cause is a need to articulate facts as to why an officer arrested a subject, is applying for a warrant ect.
Reasonable Suspicion is all that is really needed to stop a person and request ID.
In the US goverment issued ID 's to include drivers license are prperty of the issuing state and must be produced on demand of Law Enforcement.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
And the funny thing is that the US would have to go save their butt again.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
I don't agree with you on what you just said, but I guess that is why you are a socialist and I'm not.
And anyways, since you said that our "[...]view on these matters is not as well informed, since you live a couple of thousand miles away and reporters giving the frenzied opinion on this" (I don't live a couple of thousand miles away, but whatever), my inference is: How ill-informed are the views of the Dutch people then, who didn't vote for your party but gave the majority of the votes to the opposite party?
And anyways, since you said that our "[...]view on these matters is not as well informed, since you live a couple of thousand miles away and reporters giving the frenzied opinion on this" (I don't live a couple of thousand miles away, but whatever), my inference is: How ill-informed are the views of the Dutch people then, who didn't vote for your party but gave the majority of the votes to the opposite party?
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
Enough is enough
Time to start topping the rioters, :cen: due process. France's legal system presumes guilt to begin with and you must prove innocence. I say when they begin immolating the old and infirm its time to suspend their human rights as they are not behaving as humans. Sometimes the Chinese actually do make sense with how they handle turmoil. I can't believe I said that... :roll:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/page/2/
If you are out rioting you have committed an act of your own volition to join a violent movement. I say shoot to kill and meet force with force. They have chosen to do this, if they meet with a violent end it was of their own doing.
:x
Time to start topping the rioters, :cen: due process. France's legal system presumes guilt to begin with and you must prove innocence. I say when they begin immolating the old and infirm its time to suspend their human rights as they are not behaving as humans. Sometimes the Chinese actually do make sense with how they handle turmoil. I can't believe I said that... :roll:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/page/2/
If you are out rioting you have committed an act of your own volition to join a violent movement. I say shoot to kill and meet force with force. They have chosen to do this, if they meet with a violent end it was of their own doing.
:x
Damien435
Active member
mmarsh said:
Umm, bad example.
Go to San Diego and ask Jose how hard it is to get into the US, he will tell you that it is not hard at all.
We kind of have a dillema now in the US, we the world's longest unprotected border to our north and a border to the south where the theory is "What have I got to lose? If I get caught I get a couple nights rest in a cozy cell, warm food, and then a free bus ride back only to try it all over again. I am bound to get in by my sixth try." And it does not help that the Mexican government has started handing out illustrated pamplets showing their people how to safely get into America. Now, if we did things my way we would built a 12 foot tall wall all along the border but no, some ******** in Moscow decided to build a little wall around this place called Berlin and now every time someone tries to put up a way they will instantly be seen and trying to stop the spread of democracy.
Anyways, about the actual subject of this topic, I have pretty much purged my system of this subject. On another forum I compared these riots to the LA Race Riots and quite frankly I am sick of being called a racist for pointing out the plainly obvious and for typing "black people" instead of "muslim immigrants from north africa." It really saves time for my but it always comes out as racist so there we have it.
bulldogg said:
While I tend to agree with you Democracies are somewhat more limited in their choice of actions in just such a situation. Since the American and French revolutions both fed off of each other for inspiration and ideas there is not a doubt in my mind that the French constitution has something about the right to protest and the right to protest means that the police can do nothing until a violent act has been committed and by that time it is too late.
Politics aside, I would tend to agree with you. The Kent State shooting was unfortunate but quite frankly I don't care, I disaprove of protesting. If you want to voice your opposition to the government do
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
Protesting is one thing. Rioting with destruction of property while deplorable is still yet another where I would still frown on lethal force. But this :cen: is murder and democracy or not it needs to be stopped. By holding back they are allowing this to continue. The government is failing to protect its citizens because it is afraid of being accused of racism or insensitivity? What kind of specious :cen: is that?? They chose to join a violent movement whose members are murdering innocent civilians- kill them.
Whispering Death
Active member
Damien435 said:
Damien435
Active member
The government could bring a stop to this right away but the people would not allow it. Not only are these politicians worrying about ending the riots but they are also worrying about the next election. I am all for using lethal force in this situation. Have the Marines or the equivalent go though from sidewalk to sidewalk and if anyone gets in the way beat the hell out of them, if that does not work well we have other things to take care of tham such as highly concentrated microwaves, less than a second of that and those little bastards ought to be running home to mommy and daddy.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Damien435 said:
Muslim immigrants from North Africa are not black. They are Arabs and Arabs are definitely not black.
African blacks live south of the Sahara, while Arabs live north of it (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt).
I have friends from both groups and you know there really is no friendship between them. Most of the blacks are Christian, btw. Racism towards blacks is widespread among the Arabs, and the blacks know this.
Don't forget that one of the charges carried out on the US by Muslim fanatics is that it is a "dirty" society where "negroes" live next to the whites.
Look at Sudan, where the Arabs enslave the blacks from the south of the country.
Same thing happens in the wider Sahel region.
We've been having blacks immigrants from Senegal, Gambia and other countries from decades in Italy, and we have always respected their hard work and easy-going nature.
The Arabs who have been coming over recently, that's a whole different story.
bulldogg said:
I agree with you that burning a couple of thousand cars isn't the proper way of voicing your opinion, you do forget one thing. Ths government should also listen to these people. They are French, they have a French pasport, they are intergrated.... and still they are spat on. Do you think they wake up one day and think: "hmm, I reckon I'm gonna burn me some cars.."??
These are people living as second rate civilians, excluded from work or any other form of social acceptance. This is the only way to get attention. Nobody gives a bloody toss about them and listens to them and now all the eyes are on them.
I do realize that some of you think that shooting them people in New Orleans was also the right thing to do. But why don't you look one phase before that. The ones that started the riot weren't exactly middle class citizens. Is social exclusions really so invisible to you guys?
Just some random examples of how you only aggrevated the situation. Shooting them will replace them with others, because you don't solve the problem. Unless you should them all, but that is a funny way of lookingat your democracy..
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Don't agree, don't agree.
They were allowed to shoot at armed criminals in NOLA, what's wrong with that?
You talk as if it were always the society's fault, and never the individual's responsibility: If a group of thugs sets your car on fire and throw incendiary bottles through your window injuring your kids, is that the society's fault? Would you be blaming the society?
Ted said:
They were allowed to shoot at armed criminals in NOLA, what's wrong with that?
You talk as if it were always the society's fault, and never the individual's responsibility: If a group of thugs sets your car on fire and throw incendiary bottles through your window injuring your kids, is that the society's fault? Would you be blaming the society?
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
I couldn't give a rat's :cen: about the bloody cars mate. Its the killing of people, murder, that is a very different twist. Listen to them? Yes, when they are TALKING but when you're killing people you need to be capped. You cross a serious line when you begin to light people on fire who are helpless to defend themselves. That is behaving like a :cen: animal and when an animal attacks a person do you listen to it? Do you try to understand it? :cen: no, you kill it.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
I found a very interesting article on the New York Sun (http://www.nysun.com/article/22526)
Intifada in France
New York Sun Editorial
November 4, 2005
If President Chirac thought he was going to gain peace with the Muslim community in France by taking an appeasement line in the Iraq war, it certainly looks like he miscalculated. Today the streets of the French capital are looking more like Ramallah and less like the advanced, sophisticated, gay Paree image Monsieur Chirac likes to portray to the world, and the story, which is just starting to grip the world's attention, is full of ironies. One is tempted to suggest that Prime Minister Sharon send a note cautioning Monsieur Chirac about cycles of violence.
Back in the 1990s, the French sneered at America for the Los Angeles riots. As the Chicago Sun-Times reported in 1992: "the consensus of French pundits is that something on the scale of the Los Angeles riots could not happen here, mainly because France is a more humane, less racist place with a much stronger commitment to social welfare programs." President Mitterrand, the Washington Post reported in 1992, blamed the riots on the "conservative society" that Presidents Reagan and Bush had created and said France is different because it "is the country where the level of social protection is the highest in the world."
How the times have changed. Muslims in Paris's suburbs are out shooting at police and firefighters, burning cars and buildings, and throwing rocks at commuter trains. Even children are out on the streets - it was reported that a 10-year-old was arrested. The trigger for the riots was the electrocution of two teenagers last Thursday, which the rioters say came following a police chase, a charge the police deny. But even if the charge by the rioters is true, that the police are culpable in the deaths of the two youths, the fact that such an incident would spark a riot is a sign of something deeper at work - no doubt France's failure to integrate its immigrant Muslim community.
It turns out that France's Muslim community lives in areas rampant with crime, poverty, and unemployment, much the fault of France's prized welfare system. There are those of us who spent part of the 1980s in Europe, supporting the idea, among others from the Reagan era, that immigration was a virtue for a country and that the racial or religious background of the immigrants did not matter. We maintain that view. But immigration into a country with a dirigiste economy is a recipe for trouble, which is why supporters of immigration into France have long warned of the need for liberalization.
Part of France's problem is that it has defaulted on those measures. The lack of labor market flexibility and other socialist policies have created unemployment at nearly 10%, most of which falls among immigrants. And part stems from the fact that France's estimated 5 million Muslims, out of a population of 60 million, are led by mostly foreign radical imams. Only belatedly has the French state started taking action, pressing for clerics to be taught in France. All this is compounded by the image France projects of itself to its Muslims, which one can surmise is the reason why Muslims see rioting as the solution to any grievance.
It's a barely kept secret that Mr. Chirac led the opposition to the Iraq war out of fear of how his Muslim population would react. This fear is a big part of why France portrays itself as America's counterweight and why it criticizes Israel at every turn and coddled the terrorist Yasser Arafat right up to his death. This doesn't elicit thanks from Muslim radicals in France. It turns out to project an image of weakness. Unsurprisingly when faced with some unhappiness they believe they can pressure the French state into submission.
A number of observers of the French scene have looked at population trends and suggested that France is on its way to becoming a Muslim country (one that would, let it be noted, be armed with hydrogen bombs). Some react to this by suggesting a halt to immigration and even expulsion. The better approach is to impose law and order, more speedily to reform the burdensome welfare state, and start integrating the Muslim community. France could also help itself by dispatching troops to help battle the radical Islamists in Iraq, thereby sending a message to Muslims at home and abroad that France is on the side of those Muslims, the majority no doubt, who want to live in peace.
Intifada in France
New York Sun Editorial
November 4, 2005
If President Chirac thought he was going to gain peace with the Muslim community in France by taking an appeasement line in the Iraq war, it certainly looks like he miscalculated. Today the streets of the French capital are looking more like Ramallah and less like the advanced, sophisticated, gay Paree image Monsieur Chirac likes to portray to the world, and the story, which is just starting to grip the world's attention, is full of ironies. One is tempted to suggest that Prime Minister Sharon send a note cautioning Monsieur Chirac about cycles of violence.
Back in the 1990s, the French sneered at America for the Los Angeles riots. As the Chicago Sun-Times reported in 1992: "the consensus of French pundits is that something on the scale of the Los Angeles riots could not happen here, mainly because France is a more humane, less racist place with a much stronger commitment to social welfare programs." President Mitterrand, the Washington Post reported in 1992, blamed the riots on the "conservative society" that Presidents Reagan and Bush had created and said France is different because it "is the country where the level of social protection is the highest in the world."
How the times have changed. Muslims in Paris's suburbs are out shooting at police and firefighters, burning cars and buildings, and throwing rocks at commuter trains. Even children are out on the streets - it was reported that a 10-year-old was arrested. The trigger for the riots was the electrocution of two teenagers last Thursday, which the rioters say came following a police chase, a charge the police deny. But even if the charge by the rioters is true, that the police are culpable in the deaths of the two youths, the fact that such an incident would spark a riot is a sign of something deeper at work - no doubt France's failure to integrate its immigrant Muslim community.
It turns out that France's Muslim community lives in areas rampant with crime, poverty, and unemployment, much the fault of France's prized welfare system. There are those of us who spent part of the 1980s in Europe, supporting the idea, among others from the Reagan era, that immigration was a virtue for a country and that the racial or religious background of the immigrants did not matter. We maintain that view. But immigration into a country with a dirigiste economy is a recipe for trouble, which is why supporters of immigration into France have long warned of the need for liberalization.
Part of France's problem is that it has defaulted on those measures. The lack of labor market flexibility and other socialist policies have created unemployment at nearly 10%, most of which falls among immigrants. And part stems from the fact that France's estimated 5 million Muslims, out of a population of 60 million, are led by mostly foreign radical imams. Only belatedly has the French state started taking action, pressing for clerics to be taught in France. All this is compounded by the image France projects of itself to its Muslims, which one can surmise is the reason why Muslims see rioting as the solution to any grievance.
It's a barely kept secret that Mr. Chirac led the opposition to the Iraq war out of fear of how his Muslim population would react. This fear is a big part of why France portrays itself as America's counterweight and why it criticizes Israel at every turn and coddled the terrorist Yasser Arafat right up to his death. This doesn't elicit thanks from Muslim radicals in France. It turns out to project an image of weakness. Unsurprisingly when faced with some unhappiness they believe they can pressure the French state into submission.
A number of observers of the French scene have looked at population trends and suggested that France is on its way to becoming a Muslim country (one that would, let it be noted, be armed with hydrogen bombs). Some react to this by suggesting a halt to immigration and even expulsion. The better approach is to impose law and order, more speedily to reform the burdensome welfare state, and start integrating the Muslim community. France could also help itself by dispatching troops to help battle the radical Islamists in Iraq, thereby sending a message to Muslims at home and abroad that France is on the side of those Muslims, the majority no doubt, who want to live in peace.
phoenix80
Banned
for years, the European tolerance created an atmosphere for these idiots to feel safe and live the way they wanted.
Now it is time to payback.
The European tolerance is now turned to be some sort of Ignorance. And ignorance for years and turning a blind eye on the newcomers did help this crisis.
Now it is time to payback.
The European tolerance is now turned to be some sort of Ignorance. And ignorance for years and turning a blind eye on the newcomers did help this crisis.
mmarsh
Active member
Italian Guy
As an Ex-NYer (before I moved to France) the NY Sun is a garbage newspaper that makes the tabloids in the UK look like quality Press.
For example:
[/quote] No doubt France's failure to integrate its immigrant Muslim community [/quote]
Since most of these people arrivied 20-30 years or so ago I say its normal. It took America almost 200 years to intergrate in Black community and its still not finished. Clearly if the editors of the NY Sun ever left their snobby, posh, offices on Chambers Street and visited Chinatown (a 10 min walk) without a Cantonese interpreter they would see that intergration of an ethnic group takes much longer than a decade or two, espically when you consider that most Chinese have been in the US much longer than the Africans in France. Can anyone name a large ethnic group that was intergrated in less than 25 years? What a stupid claim.
[/quote]It turns out that France's Muslim community lives in areas rampant with crime, poverty, and unemployment, much the fault of France's prized welfare system [/quote]
What a crock! Compare crime rates, poverty in the Muslim Areas against those poor areas in the US (like South-Central LA). The US is much higher, right? So how on earth can that be blamed the French welfare's systems fault? The article doesnt say (what a surprise). The reason of high unemployment in France has do to with high taxes on businesses that stagmates job creation, not the welfare system. Of course this brings in a nice sum into the governments bank accounts. Its a well known, well acknowledged, problem here. This is a classic example of the NY Sun talking out of its a** in order to serve its conservative agenda.
[/quote]It's a barely kept secret that Mr. Chirac led the opposition to the Iraq war out of fear of how his Muslim population would react [/quote]
Italian Guy, I thought France was in it for the oil...
[/quote]The better approach is to impose law and order, more speedily to reform the burdensome welfare state, and start integrating the Muslim community. France could also help itself by dispatching troops to help battle the radical Islamists in Iraq.[/quote]
This is where the SUN *stellar* Journalism falls apart. First its says that Chirac was afraid to send troops to Iraq because he was afraid the Muslim would be upset, then it suggests doing exactly that because that it would send a positive message to the Muslim community. The SUNs Editors appearently failed to notice that contradiction there?? Also The SUN failed to mention the 'positive message' in Madrid and London when local muslim terror groups staged attacks on their own soil percisely because their governments sent troops to Iraq.
As an Ex-NYer (before I moved to France) the NY Sun is a garbage newspaper that makes the tabloids in the UK look like quality Press.
For example:
[/quote] No doubt France's failure to integrate its immigrant Muslim community [/quote]
Since most of these people arrivied 20-30 years or so ago I say its normal. It took America almost 200 years to intergrate in Black community and its still not finished. Clearly if the editors of the NY Sun ever left their snobby, posh, offices on Chambers Street and visited Chinatown (a 10 min walk) without a Cantonese interpreter they would see that intergration of an ethnic group takes much longer than a decade or two, espically when you consider that most Chinese have been in the US much longer than the Africans in France. Can anyone name a large ethnic group that was intergrated in less than 25 years? What a stupid claim.
[/quote]It turns out that France's Muslim community lives in areas rampant with crime, poverty, and unemployment, much the fault of France's prized welfare system [/quote]
What a crock! Compare crime rates, poverty in the Muslim Areas against those poor areas in the US (like South-Central LA). The US is much higher, right? So how on earth can that be blamed the French welfare's systems fault? The article doesnt say (what a surprise). The reason of high unemployment in France has do to with high taxes on businesses that stagmates job creation, not the welfare system. Of course this brings in a nice sum into the governments bank accounts. Its a well known, well acknowledged, problem here. This is a classic example of the NY Sun talking out of its a** in order to serve its conservative agenda.
[/quote]It's a barely kept secret that Mr. Chirac led the opposition to the Iraq war out of fear of how his Muslim population would react [/quote]
Italian Guy, I thought France was in it for the oil...
[/quote]The better approach is to impose law and order, more speedily to reform the burdensome welfare state, and start integrating the Muslim community. France could also help itself by dispatching troops to help battle the radical Islamists in Iraq.[/quote]
This is where the SUN *stellar* Journalism falls apart. First its says that Chirac was afraid to send troops to Iraq because he was afraid the Muslim would be upset, then it suggests doing exactly that because that it would send a positive message to the Muslim community. The SUNs Editors appearently failed to notice that contradiction there?? Also The SUN failed to mention the 'positive message' in Madrid and London when local muslim terror groups staged attacks on their own soil percisely because their governments sent troops to Iraq.