OCTOBER 1973 WAR (YUM KIPPUR)- AN EGYPTIAN VICTORY

[Sayed Zakerya]

Israelies like to introduce this war as an Israeli triumph. This is completely opposite to this war events. Israelis are employing their global biased media m/c to turn its disaster in this War into victory.
The YK war should be evaluated based on the following well-known Clausewitz' concepts
- War must never be seen as a purpose to itself, but as a means of physically forcing one's will on an opponent ("war is the continuation of politics through other means").

In addtion to the the above Clausewitz has classified the War objectives into two main categories:-
A- war to achieve limited aims
B- war to "disarm” the enemy: “to render [him] politically helpless or militarily impotent."

Knowing the Superiority of IDF (especially) in Air & armoured forces) which was planned & executed by the unlimited support of US to israel, Egypt selected "A" war class.

The Basic Egyptian army war mission was :-
1-Storming Suez Canal east Bank & demolishing IDF fortifications line ( Bar-leve Line]
2- Peneteration of 5 to 6 miles deep in Sinai under the cover of the Egyptian anti Air missiles umbrella.
3- Sparking off an international crisis into which both USSR & US would be drawn. The Egyptian leadership hoped that the two superpowers would then force Israel into concessions aaceptable to the Arabs.
4-If superpowers failed to intervene or were unable to force Israel to make the demanded concessions, The arabs were to revert to "meat grinder" tactics againest thr stretched IDF forces & continue fighting for weeks or months againest the Exhausted IDF troops & force Israel to accept the Arab terms.

The first 3 targets were fulfilled in the period between 6 october 1973 & 18th Jan 1974. There was no need for step 4.
This is the Egyptian victory.

IDF officer surrenders to an Egyptian officer on Canal shores.

 

[viewer]

i think peace won in the end. but if it makes you feel better: Egypt won ok?

 

[rock45]

Hi Sayed Zakerya
Interesting way of leaving out certain facts about this war. I'm pretty sure this subject has been covered here.

Quick turning point
Once Egypt's army move out from under the SAM umbrella Egypt basically through away any chance of winning and played into the strength of Israel which was their Air Force. Egypt's high command or maybe government I don't know lost the war right at this point and through away any gains made in the opening advances. It was a bad tactical decision which lead to a number of different battle field failures in the end including letting a fast moving Israeli force drive into Egypt. Only politically powers stopped them you can Google this information from many non Israeli sources.

 

[Sayed Zakerya]

Once Egypt's army move out from under the SAM umbrella Egypt basically through away any chance of winning and played into the strength of Israel which was their Air Force. Egypt's high command or maybe government I don't know lost the war right at this point and through away any gains made in the opening advances. It was a bad tactical decision which lead to a number of different battle field failures in the end including letting a fast moving Israeli force drive into Egypt.

What a brief miss leading summary. Typical Israeli propaganda. Your statement ignores the following:-
1- IDF failed to push the 2nd army from its new positions on Canal east shore to its 5th of Oct lines in the west.
2- IDF failed to push the 3rd army from its new positions on Canal east shore to its 5th of Oct lines in the west.
3-IDF failed to surround the second army or to capture Ismailia city.
4-IDF failed to occupy Suez city.
5-IDF failed to secure the passage of its logistic supplies from Sinai to its divisions on Canal west shores. Its troops failed to occupy missori or the northern sections of the Chineese firm.

The last War days recorded IDF Adan Division defeat inside Suez city by DIV 19 troops. Adan failed to occupy the city & lost more than 100 killed soldier. In the north Sharon division was defeated by the Egyptian Paratrooper brigades no 150 & 182 who pushed his troops to the south. In the East IDF failed to occupy missori or the northern section of the Chineese battle.
The War final status presented 3 IDF divisions in the west canal bank that are confronted from the north, West & south by Superior Egyptian forces. These divisions link to their logistic bases in the East was in the range of the Medium range Egyptian artillery.
This poor IDF military positions was the reason for their retreet to the east to 35 Kms from the Canal chores in Jan 1974 in response to the First Disengagement agreement. The lack of any political advantage for Israel in this agreement proved their military dispirit status.
The Egyptian limited war targets were achieved. This is best expressed by Trevor N. Dupuy, Elusive Victory: The Arab-Israeli Wars, 1947–1974 (New York: Harper and Row, 1978), 343. He stated

Thus, if war is the employment of military force in support of political objectives, there can be no doubt that in strategic and political terms the Arab States and particularly Egypt - won the war, even though the military outcome was a stalemate permitting both sides to claim military victory.

 

[rock45]

Sayed Zakerya
What a brief miss leading summary. Typical Israeli propaganda.

I guess you missed this part of my post "Google this information from many non Israeli sources".

No problem have a nice day.

 

[Partisan]

Okay, I get what you're saying - I need to read up because I'm not too sure of the sequence of events etc, but I do have 1 big question - What about the aftermath?

I'm sure that the Egyptian & Syrian armies did not plan to gut themselves for a a pyrrhic victory, so what was achieved? I know that the Israeli losses were approximately 1/3 of the Arab losses, which given population ratios could make this a victory - but think of the loss of military experience!

I'll try to track down the book, in order to be able to give a more informed opinion, what I've said are just my thoughts, not backed by facts.

 

[BritinBritain]

Quick turning point
Once Egypt's army move out from under the SAM umbrella Egypt basically through away any chance of winning and played into the strength of Israel which was their Air Force. Egypt's high command or maybe government I don't know lost the war right at this point and through away any gains made in the opening advances. It was a bad tactical decision which lead to a number of different battle field failures in the end including letting a fast moving Israeli force drive into Egypt. Only politically powers stopped them you can Google this information from many non Israeli sources.

That has been my understanding.

 

[BootStomp]

Your Logic is sounds from that point of view. However, while yes you did accomplish your goals, you lost way more men and in the end it was Israeli compassiona nd not wanting to see the senseless murder of the rest of the 2nd and 3rd army. Be truthful they were surrounded and out numbered in the end. Consider the fact that all of Israel would have become troops, because I do believe in Israel in times of war all men in an certain age range are called to become a defense group, now a days I believe it has been extended to even women.

Egypt is/was strong and they accomplished their goals but didn't put the Israelies into anything, the USA and USSR had both said they would stay out. Though the Egyptain anti air missles where in fact Russian made, just like some supplies the Israelies had where American made. Won no, accomplished goals, sure, but didnt win when basically being forced to surrender. as for your picture, all that shows is one of the many forts that was captured and made to surrender.

Israelies like to introduce this war as an Israeli triumph. This is completely opposite to this war events. Israelis are employing their global biased media m/c to turn its disaster in this War into victory.
The YK war should be evaluated based on the following well-known Clausewitz' concepts
- War must never be seen as a purpose to itself, but as a means of physically forcing one's will on an opponent ("war is the continuation of politics through other means").

In addtion to the the above Clausewitz has classified the War objectives into two main categories:-
A- war to achieve limited aims
B- war to "disarm” the enemy: “to render [him] politically helpless or militarily impotent."

Knowing the Superiority of IDF (especially) in Air & armoured forces) which was planned & executed by the unlimited support of US to israel, Egypt selected "A" war class.

The Basic Egyptian army war mission was :-
1-Storming Suez Canal east Bank & demolishing IDF fortifications line ( Bar-leve Line]
2- Peneteration of 5 to 6 miles deep in Sinai under the cover of the Egyptian anti Air missiles umbrella.
3- Sparking off an international crisis into which both USSR & US would be drawn. The Egyptian leadership hoped that the two superpowers would then force Israel into concessions aaceptable to the Arabs.
4-If superpowers failed to intervene or were unable to force Israel to make the demanded concessions, The arabs were to revert to "meat grinder" tactics againest thr stretched IDF forces & continue fighting for weeks or months againest the Exhausted IDF troops & force Israel to accept the Arab terms.

The first 3 targets were fulfilled in the period between 6 october 1973 & 18th Jan 1974. There was no need for step 4.
This is the Egyptian victory.

IDF officer surrenders to an Egyptian officer on Canal shores.

 

[LeEnfield]

You may have won a victory but you did not win the war, Egypt was pushed right back and lost a lot of territory which took them years of diplomacy to get back, now if that is a victory I would hate to think what you would class a defeat as.

 

[SHERMAN]

LeeEnfield, your mixing up history. They did not loose any land in 1973. Well, they did a little but it was back in Egyptian hands within a year.

 

[Ice Tea]

LeeEnfield, your mixing up history. They did not loose any land in 1973. Well, they did a little but it was back in Egyptian hands within a year.

Indeed. Allow me to make a quick recap about how the Egyptian territory stuff went.

Up until the Six Day War (1967), Egypt has the Sinai Peninsula.

Following the Six Day War, Israel is in control of the Sinai Peninsula.

Then there was the 1969-1970 War of Attrition, but it incurred no territory changes.

Now, in 1973, the Yom Kippur War, what happened is that Egypt had crossed the Suez Canal and broke through the Bar Lev line (a set of fortifications built along the aforementioned canal) in Operation Badr, effectively entering the Sinai Peninsula. Skipping ahead, they were pushed back and Israeli forces crossed the canal and entered Egypt (Operation Heart Knights), reaching 101 kilometers from Cairo before the ceasefire came into effect. I'm not sure about the details, but when the war was over, Egypt still had a large force controlling the Bar Lev Line. At any rate, following the Camp David Accords of 1978, Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty (1979), on which it was agreed that Egypt would get Sinai back.

And there we go.

 

[rattler]

LeeEnfield, your mixing up history. They did not loose any land in 1973. Well, they did a little but it was back in Egyptian hands within a year.

Indeed!

While they got Sinai (back from 67) initially, that is also the only bit they lost (a part of) later, and then got it back at the tables.

Rattler

Indeed!

While they got Sinai (back from 67) initially, that is also the only bit they lost (a part of) later, and then got it back at the tables.

Rattler

Ouch. I hate quoting myself...

I realize this statement had already been made, my bad.

LL: Read the thread to end before entering something into "quick Reply"...

Apologies,

Rattler

 

[EladBell]

i dont know if the world actually know that the war began on Yom Kipur when everyone is fasting and at the temples...i dont know if they aware of the logistic had to be made in order to push the arabs back to thier border when there was practically no army for the first few days of the war.
anyway....i dont know how u guys consider victory but if a small country could WIN a war on 2 front(even Germany in its full might couldnt) with no armies on the first dayspushing the north front till the howitzers could reach Dammascus and reaching 101 KM from the southern Capitol Cairo...i think this is one hell of a victory if u look at the wider picture

long live Israel

 

[SHERMAN]

A military victory is pointless without proper policy. Israel won the war in every military aspect but like i said the Egyptians got what they wanted.

 

[LeMask]

This whole war was a big mistake. Another defeat for the Arabs.

A lot of people died in both sides. And they didnt bring peace in the area.

I personnally dont care a lot about whose flag is flying in the area. It doenst mater to me at all.

If I had to choose between an arrogant Israeli soldier or a corrupt Egyptian soldier, I wouldnt be able to choose.

Both countries lost way too much in this war. And the area isnt peaceful yet. Israel is still at war. And the Arab countries involved are still corrupt... No one is happy.

I dont know if Israel could afford to lose a war. If Israel would still be here if the Egyptians managed to win more battles...

But what I know, is that by winning conventional battles against such big armies, Israel gave the advocates of terrorism strong arguments...

Of course, we cant ask Israel to lose a war to give the terrorist the will to try to fight with conventional weapons.

And no body wins a war.

Even if you manage to get all your men out of battle with their lives. They will still have blood on their hands.

We can argue that having enemy blood on your hands is better than having your own blood on your hands... But still... You can be victorious by losing less than your enemy.

 

[AVON]

This whole war was a big mistake. Another defeat for the Arabs.

True but, the ending of the war as such, there was no real winners or losers. As such, the Egyptian military (in particular) can take pride in the fact that when a cease fire took place, their military was still able to fight. This was the first time since the War of Liberation this reality existed. The Egyptian Military earned "SELF-RESPECT!"

I dont know if Israel could afford to lose a war. If Israel would still be here if the Egyptians managed to win more battles...

If the Arab forces work together as the coalition did in PGW#1. Israel could be in for real trouble.
If in loosing a war, you talking about the Syrians controlling the entire Golan Heights, the Egyptian occupying the Sinai Desert, Jordan capturing land up to Jerusalem.... forcing a cease fire in place then Israel could afford to loose a war. If on the other hand, you are talking about the Israeli military being completely defeated and Israel is forced to sign a surrender then Israel can not afford to loose a war. If that happened then the nation of Israel would its sovereignty!!!

 

[SHERMAN]

As such, the Egyptian military (in particular) can take pride in the fact that when a cease fire took place, their military was still able to fight

I am not sure if that is true. They were mostly encircled on the wrong side of the suez cannal. What stood between the IDF and Cairo was mostly the IDFs own issues.

 

[MontyB]

This whole war was a big mistake. Another defeat for the Arabs.

I am going to go with a "Yes and No" argument on this one, yes they did lose in the end but they learned that they could win, in fact had they stuck to the original plan there is a very strong chance they would have achieved both diplomatic and military victories.

I tend to think that it was this "evening of the playing field" that eventually led to a more lasting peace.

 

[Pakistan Army]

I don't know much but I think in that war Israelis tasted the Pakistani Power when PAF pilots shot down 6IDF Aircrafts without loosing a single one.
Pilots were Sqn Ldr Azam shot down IDF MysterIVA, MirageIII and VautourII in.
Flt Lt hatif shot IDF F4E and Sqn Ldr Alvi shot 2 Mrage IIIs of IDF.
2ndly I heard some Israeli saying that Israel is invincible as proved by Arab Israel war, well Israel lost War from an Under Equiped Lebanese Militia "Hezbullah" and that is enough fot the IDF image.

 

[SHERMAN]

I don't know much but I think in that war Israelis tasted the Pakistani Power when PAF pilots shot down 6IDF Aircrafts without loosing a single one.
Pilots were Sqn Ldr Azam shot down IDF MysterIVA, MirageIII and VautourII in.
Flt Lt hatif shot IDF F4E and Sqn Ldr Alvi shot 2 Mrage IIIs of IDF.

VautourII? That was withdrawn from service in 1970? Intresting...Why dont you pay attention to the stuff other people post and than make your posts. By the way we had a thread about that a few weeks ago look it up...Oh, sorry you cant...Cause your banned for using a false user account.