OCTOBER 1973 WAR (YUM KIPPUR)- AN EGYPTIAN VICTORY

[yoyo]

there was no air supriority. The IAF was unable to defeat the SAM launchers.

The Israeli air force succeeded to achieve air superiority above the Suez Canal during the last week of the war.
When the Israeli air force was given time to deal first with the SAMs and only after it to deal with the rest,
the Israelis found it much easier to bomb the Egyptians.
The Egyptians didn't use their SAMs wisely.
Their Syrian colleagues used to relocate their SA-6 units every few hours and made them hard to be found by the Israelis unlike the Egyptians.
Among 62 Egyptians surface to air Missile batteries located near the Suez Canal, 32 were lost to air strikes and 11 to ground strikes.
11 more were damaged by air strikes and the rest have pulled back.
The Egyptian fighter pilots were poorly trained by their air academy chief Hosni Moubarak who later became the chief of the air force and of the nation.
While Israeli pilots shot down 180 Egyptian aircraft, the Egyptian pilots shot down no more than 8 Israeli aircraft.
When there were no more SAMs in the Canal area to protect tens of thousands of Egyptian troops and when the 3rd army was cut off from water supply in the middle of the desert Saadat understood the unpleasant true:​

He lost the war, and begged for a truce.

 

[yoyo]

response to l33temoh

About the crossing of the Bar Lev line:
On the 6/10/1973 14:00 only 500 Israelis were manning the Bar-Lev line,
while facing 80,000 Egyptians who crossed in two waves.
The rest of the Israelis in the Sinai Peninsula were far behind the canal when the war started,
so no one can say that the Egyptians crossed
"the most powerful fortification in the world".
While Egypt claims it took it 6 hours to destroy it,
the last Israelis in the Bar-Lev line surrendered Port Tawfiq on 13/10,
in front of TV cameras, after more than six days.
About intervention of Jordan and Iraq:
Iraq and Jordan did already send troops to fight Israel when its troops threated Damascus so they have already played this card.
About a possible Israeli attack of Cairo:
No one in Israel thought to occupy Cairo.
Only the local militia in Cairo is grater than the entire Israeli army.
However, firing some shells from distance on some Egyptian government installation in Cairo (as was in Damascus) may hardly damage Saadat reputation in the Egyptian public.
Maybe even make him overthrown.
Israel only asked to make the Egyptian army leave all of Sinai and to pull back a few kilometer behind the Suez Canal, not occupying Cairo or entire Egypt.
If the Super powers wouldn't force a cease on Israel, it may have achieved these goals.
But why the hell Israel accepted the ceasefire of 22/10/1973.
This ceasefire was forced by a resolution of the United Nation Security Council.
If Israel was to violate a Security Council resolution the entire world including America would embargo Israel.
Israel will not be able to buy even food and fuel for its soldiers and people.
Egypt and Syria wanted a ceasefire to prevent their defeat.
The Soviets wanted a ceasefire to rescue Egypt and Syria who were their allies.
The U.S. wanted a ceasefire to make the Arab oil embargo to stop.
Israel had to accept it.
Egypt gained its objectives by diplomacy.
Not by force.​

 

[Nasir56]

Thousands of Egyptian infantry(Muslims&Christians)crossed the canal saying the same word(Allahu Akbar)
and" YoYo" you are trying to change the facts:
1.IDF didnt destroy 220 plane in 1973,that happened in 1967.
2.IDF didnt destroy all Egyptian SAMs sites.
3.Was no air superiority over the canal exept the area that IDF was able to occupy.
4.Egyptians hadnt SAM-6 in 1973,they had SAM1,2 only.
5.You cant say that IDF won because they circled the 3rd army while the 2nd army was fully operational and well protected against aircraft.
6.You said also that the line was guard with only 800 man(what a joke).Did you forgot about the armored brigades ,artillery and Napalm.
7.Egyptian infantry had to deal with your armor and artellery brigade for 8 hours until the 1st Egyptian armor brigade crossed the canal.
8.After 22,Oct IDF armored brigades was unable to advance any more.
9.You said b4 that the USSR will fight for Egypt,that happend in 1956 not 1973.
10.USSR supplies was mostly for the Syrian.
11.Ramadan war was the only way to force Israel to Diplomacy.
12.All the Egyptians attemps for peace b4 Ramadan war failed.
13.Sadat said to his commanders"If you can retake 10cm east the canal,I will be able to do everything by politics to restore the land".
14.Egyptian was able to prevent Israel from achieving the ultimate dream(from Nile in Egypt to El phurat in Iraq)
One last thing No one was able to occupy the arab land 4ever and alot tried b4 Israel.

 

[AVON]

there was no air supriority. The IAF was unable to defeat the SAM launchers.

On the Egyptian front, the SAM belt was destroyed Israeli armor on the west side of the canal. On the west side of the canal, the Israeli Army was low in supply of tanks so, when Israeli armor spotted Egyptian armor, the IAF was called to destroy the Egyptian armor. Then the Israeli armor would move and attack the SAM sites on the west side of the canal widening the gap in the SAM belt.
On the Golan, the IAF attacked directly the SAM sites and ZSU-23-4s in a three day battle. After three days they had defeated half the anti-aircraft defense forces. Then the IAF used its F-4s and attacked targets very close to Damascus. Fearing for their capital city, the Syrian Army moved the remainder of their SAM-6s and ZSU-23-4s back to protect Damascus. This left the Syrian army on the Golan Heights without air protection and the Syrian armor was destroyed.

4.Egyptians hadnt SAM-6 in 1973,they had SAM1,2 only.

INCORRECT! The SAM-6 was a devastating surprise to the IAF and USAF. The SAM-6 did receive the majority of the video on the world's TVs. The SAM-6 did not make the majority of the kills but, what they did do was to cause the IAF pilots to do a "Split-S", dropping down very low where the ZSU-23-4s chewed them up!
The biggest surprise to the USAF was that even though the HAWK Missile had been operational for over a dozen years with the US Army and Marine Corp, the CW-radar for guidance of the missiles, the USAF had 'NO' CW-jammers! So the USAF shipped the IAF jammers which prevented the search radars to lock-on to the fighters.

 

[Nasir56]

IDF didnt destroy all SAM sites,simply 2nd army was well protected against aircraft and in very good position.
IDF was able only to destroy SAM sites behind 3rd army.
(in his book)Saad El-Shazly said that USSR refused to sell SAM6 for Egypt.
You guys trying to say that IAF won because they encircled the 3rd army while the 2nd army was well protected and IAF was unable to advance any more.
The truth is Egypt was land OWNER and Israel was INVADERS,and some day the owner will get his land back.
(in simple words)Egypt got its land back so they won.And Ramadan war was the only way to force Israel to diplomacy.

 

[EladBell]

h owner who exicte for 2000 years and the invaderr who excite for only 5500 years right?
go read history your rellgious was formed around 3000 years after the jews were ruling most of the middl east of that time.

 

[SHERMAN]

This is not a political debate about the lland ownership over Israel/Palestine. Both of you stand down before I do it for you.

 

[AVON]

IDF didnt destroy all SAM sites

They did not have to destroy ALL the SAM sites to render the air defense ineffective, just a large percentage of the SAM sites.

IDF was able only to destroy SAM sites behind 3rd army.

Yes, there were SAM-6 sites on the west side of the canal that were still operational but, there were gaps in the defensive coverage because Israeli tanks roamed around and their primary mission was to destroy SAM sites. If they encountered Egyptian armor, they were not to engage them. They were to call for air support and let the IAF kill the enemy tanks. The only way for the Israeli tanks to roam freely was to have effective air cover.

(in his book)Saad El-Shazly said that USSR refused to sell SAM6 for Egypt.

There is plenty of video tape that contradicts that assertion. Both Egypt and Syria had SAM-6's, the first Soviet SAM that used CW-homing to the target. There is no capability for the SAM-2 to hit low flying aircraft.
On You Tube, there are several videos on the Yom Kippur War, one of which -URL;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_74OaMJhPQM
Four minutes and forty-four seconds into the video there is few frames showing a set of SAM-6 missiles on their launcher.

You guys trying to say that IAF won because they encircled the 3rd army while the 2nd army was well protected and IAF was unable to advance any more.

The Israelis won because they were the dominator at the end of the conflict. On the east side of the canal, twice the 2nd Army tried to break out of its encirclement and failed. (The cease fire process tried and failed a few times over several days.) All their supplies and re-enforcements were cut off. Water was the greatest concern and the international community was pressuring Israel, not to standby and watch Egyptian soldiers die of thurst. While the IAF had control of the air on the west side of the canal, which is why Israeli tanks roamed freely but, it was the first time during an Israeli-Egyptian War that EAF was able to still fight at the end of the conflict! A real source of pride.

And Ramadan war was the only way to force Israel to diplomacy.

Why do so many people call that conflict the Ramadan War? The conflicts design was to start on the beginning of Yom Kippur, a time when the Israeli government would be most reluctant to call up the reserve forces. True, it happened during Ramadan but, within that time period, were the events that affected the Jewish people thus, it started on Yom Kippur.

The last point is, true... the success of the Arab coalition was the only reason Israel was willing to do any serious negotiations with its neighbor countries, after the conflict. The fact that the Egyptian forces still had some fight in them caused Israel to pay a new respect to Egypt.
Israel's victory against Syrian military left no doubt, the IDF simply and completely defeated the Syrian offensive. On the ground and in the air.

 

[yoyo]

IDF didnt destroy 220 plane in 1973,that happened in 1967.

During the 1973 war the Egyptians lost 279 aircraft, confirmed, and possibly more 11 aircraft.

179 were shot down by aircraft, 39 were shot down by anti aircraft guns and surface to air missile,
17 were shot down by small arms fire, 12 were destroyed on the ground,
and 32 were lost due to non combat reasons.
Syria lost 153 aircraft, confirmed and possibly more 6 aircraft.
Israel lost 109 aircraft.
102 combat jets, 2 light planes and 5 helicopters.​

That was in 1973, not in 1967.

Was no air superiority over the canal exept the area that IDF was able to occupy.
You cant say that IDF won because they circled the 3rd army while the 2nd army was fully operational and well protected against aircraft.

The Israelis succeeded destroying 24 Egyptian SAM batteries
only in the northern-central sector of the Suez Canal by 20/10/1973,
and occupied the southern sector by ground troops.
By then, Egyptian troops and equipment were vulnerable to Israeli air strikes all across the Suez Canal,
not only the 3rd army.
About 70 Egyptian SAM batteries were stationed on the Suez Canal area by 06/10/1973.
54 were knocked out until the end of the war.​

The Syrians on the other hand lost no more then 10 SAM batteries.

You said also that the line was guard with only 800 man(what a joke).Did you forgot about the armored brigades ,artillery and Napalm.
Egyptian infantry had to deal with your armor and artellery brigade for 8 hours until the 1st Egyptian armor brigade crossed the canal.

On 06/10/1973 14:00 there were no more then 600 Israeli soldiers and four tanks
on the water line of the Suez Canal.
There was almost no Israeli artillery in range but there were 2,000 Egyptian artillery pieces in range.
One Israeli tank brigade was a few kilometers away and two more were in the passages area.
The Egyptian first waves crossed the Canal thru the gaps between the Israeli strong points,
facing no resistance, and occupied their new positions in the eastern shore before the Israeli tanks reached into their own positions.
The Egyptians ambushed the Israeli tanks with RPG-7s,
and fired guided missiles on them from the high sand ramp that they occupied on the eastern bank.
A few Israeli tanks that managed to reach the water line were hit by Egyptian fire from the higher sand ramp on the western bank.
Even if the Egyptian had no armor support in the first hours, there were 100 Egyptian soldiers for every Israeli tank and the Egyptian occupied the high sand ramps on both shores before the Israeli reinforcement came in.
The napalm system was a joke.
The Egyptians did not have to send frogmen a night before to block the pipes.
Most of them were actually dummies and many of the pumps were in poor technical condition.
By doing this commando operation, they did not change drastically the condition of the napalm system.
However, they took a risk.​

If the Israelis would discover this commando operation,
they would probably conclude that in the next day there will be a war.

After 22,Oct IDF armored brigades was unable to advance any more.

The reason that the Israelis halt their advance on 22/10/1973 is a UN call for cease fire, not Egyptian resistance.​

That’s why the Israelis succeeded to advance before 22/10 and after the ceasefire had collapsed.

You said b4 that the USSR will fight for Egypt,that happend in 1956 not 1973.

In regardless to what happened in 1956, on 21:35 24/10/1973 after the situation became desperate for the Egyptians;
Brezhnev sent an urgent letter to Nixon.
He threated to send Soviets troops to fight on Egypt side if the Israelis would not remove the siege on the 3rd army, and put Soviet forces on alert.
In response the U.S. put its own troops on alert.
The only reason for this is that Egypt was loosing to Israel and needed for Soviet help.
​

Egyptians hadnt SAM-6 in 1973,they had SAM1,2 only.
USSR supplies was mostly for the Syrian.

Even if most Soviet supplies went to Syria, we must remember that Israel was also confronting Syria in the same time.
But the Soviets massively supplied Egypt until weeks before the outbreak of the war and that includes SA-6.​

That is why Saadat said: "they are drowning me in arms"
On the other hand, the Israelis were severely short in ammunition in the beginning of the war.

​

Sadat said to his commanders"If you can retake 10cm east the canal,
I will be able to do everything by politics to restore the land".

I believe Saadat when he said that his only goal was to occupy a narrow line on the eastern shore of the canal,
but is it includes loosing a much wider area on the western bank to the Israelis ?
Was Saadat so crazy to consider this as a military achievement ?​

 

[LeMask]

Well, the Egyptian victory was to proove that they werent totally useless as a military force.

And they barely did that. The Syrians failed totally in doing so.

The Israelis had a strong will to fight too. When you are defending your nation against total destruction... Well... Running from battle doesnt look like a working solution.

 

[AVON]

The Syrians on the other hand lost no more then 10 SAM batteries.

I do not know the total number of Syrian SAM sites nor the number of ZSUs on the Golan Heights but, I do know after the three day air offensive by the IAF against the Syrian mobile air defense, on 10/09/73 they sent two groups of F-4 Phantoms to bomb and destroyed the Syrian General Staff Headquarters in the heart of Damascus. The Syrian Air Force Headquarters was damaged as well. The Syrian Army then withdrew the remaining SAM-6s to protect Damascus, which left the army on the Golan heights vulnerable to the IAF.

The Egyptians ambushed the Israeli tanks with RPG-7s, and fired guided missiles

One of the greatest surprises of the ground war was the effectiveness of the wire guided Sagger and Snapper anti-tank missiles. The Egyptian Army had hundreds of them with the first waves of infantry that encountered the Israeli armor's first counter-attacks. The Israeli armor had never experienced anything like this. The first Israeli armor counter attacks were made 'piece-meal' without any infantry support!
Later in the war the US airlift gave the Israeli Army their first TOW missiles which were more accurate and devastating against Egyptian armor.

Brezhnev sent an urgent letter to Nixon.
He threated to send Soviets troops to fight on Egypt side if the Israelis would not remove the siege on the 3rd army, and put Soviet forces on alert.
In response the U.S. put its own troops on alert.

Not just an alert, President Nixon went to DEFCON-3! (During the Cuban Missile Crisis the USA went to DEFCON-2.) This action by President Nixon took the Soviet Union by surprise and the Soviet Union decided not to send the airborne forces which had been placed on alert. The Soviet leaders were surprised the USA would risk nuclear war over the Israeli versus Arab countries.
The Israeli intelligence people knew of the Soviet airborne alert. I wonder "IF" the Soviet Union had sent the airborne forces, would the IAF have shot down the Soviet transports??

The Israelis had a strong will to fight too. When you are defending your nation against total destruction...

So true and, no where was this more clear than on the Golan Heights.

 

[3dgeo]

Contribution????
Try A $1.1 Billion emergency US 1973 airlift.
Or $10 million per day in US TAXPAYER aid.

Israel is the only country that gets ALL it's US Aid in one lump sum.NO STRINGS.All other nation receipents get quarterly payments,and strings attached A PLENTY.Israel gets theirs in CASH.Yes CASH!!!!Direct deposit into their treasury.
US borrows that money,and pays interest on it.
Israel invests the US cash and collects interest.
How Sweeeeeeet 'tis!!!!

If sourcing be needed I could oblidge....

 

[3dgeo]

Source? What is "in plain view"? How do you deploy a air dropped nuclear dvice(Israel had no ballistic missiles to speak of at the time) in plain view?


In plain view as in site of US surviellience assets.
Overhead sattellites and SR-71 BLACKBIRD being two.
Some of inel.gathered would be later provided to Israel along with massive $1.1 Billion US airlift to help save the IDF.
See operation Nickel Grass.
On third day of war a rattled DM Moshe Dayan would propose Israeli Nuclear deployment to PM Golda Meir as she pleaded for arms from Nixon Administration.
Israel's Jericho1 missile (SRBM),Operational by 1972 with a 500km range,a 500 kg conventional or WMD payload would be used as Nuclear Blackmail.
US would get the message and fully gassed,armed tanks and tons of replacement materiel would land in proximity of the battlefield.The USSR would also detect Israel's Nuclear deployment and this would trigger a Soviet nuclear alert of it's forces.The US responds by going on worlwide Nuclear footing.
The American taxpayer would be on the hook to underwrite Israel's "Gas bill"(see Sinai II Agreements,US To Gaurantee IsraeL's fuel supplies) and all Arms bills from that point on.

According to the Christian Science Monitor,the cost of Israel to the American TAXpayer has been over $1.6 TRILLION since 1973.http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

 

[3dgeo]

Israel WMD blackmails US INTO MASSIVE ARMS REPLACEMENT

Source? What is "in plain view"? How do you deploy a air dropped nuclear dvice(Israel had no ballistic missiles to speak of at the time) in plain view?

As stated before as IDF was reeling,a rattled Moshe Dayan convinced PM Golda Meir to deploy *Jericho missiles in view of overhead US reconaissance to strong arm Nixon adminstration into airlifting replacement arms.
Message was:Israel will use WMD if you donot rush US replacement arms.PERIOD
Cost to US TAXPAYER: $1.1 Billion.See operation Nickel Grass.

*JerichoI was first publicly identified as an operational short-range ballistic missile system in late 1971. It was 13.4 m long, 0.8 m in diameter, weighing 6.5 tons. It had a range of 500 km and a CEP of 1,000 m, and it could carry a payload estimated at 400 kg. It was intended to carry a nuclear warhead.[1][2] However, due to Israel's ambiguity over its nuclear weapons program, the missile is classified as a ballistic missile. Initial development was in conjunction with France, Dassault provided various missile systems from 1963 and a type designated MD-620 was test fired in 1965. But French co-operation was halted by an arms embargo from January 1968, though 12 missiles had been delivered from France.[2] Work was continued by IAI at the Beit Zachariah facility and the program cost almost $1 billion up to 1980. Despite some initial problems with its guidance systems, it is believed that around 100 missiles of this type were produced.
In 1969 Israel agreed with the U.S. that Jericho missiles would not be used as "strategic missiles", with nuclear warheads, until at least 1972.[

JERICHO SOURCE:WIKIEPEIDIA,WHAT DO THEY KNOW???

 

[AVON]

Contribution????Try A $1.1 Billion emergency US 1973 airlift.
Or $10 million per day in US TAXPAYER aid.
Israel is the only country that gets ALL it's US Aid in one lump sum.NO STRINGS.All other nation receipents get quarterly payments,and strings attached A PLENTY.Israel gets theirs in CASH.Yes CASH!!!!Direct deposit into their treasury.
US borrows that money,and pays interest on it.
Israel invests the US cash and collects interest.
How Sweeeeeeet 'tis!!!!

I know you are correct because, I have heard of this several times before. There are some strings... the money 'must' be spent on US made weapons and goods. (The typical stuff when a country receives foreign aid.) Many times there is interest 2%. Usually, when the 'prime interest rate' is 4% to 6%. At 2% Israel can invest the money on the open market and earn three, four, sometimes more in interest. After getting more money than they originally requested (due to interest) after several years. Israel then pays the USA back the money owed and Israel has a lot more money to work with than originally requested.

 

[Panzercracker]

Well, the Egyptian victory was to proove that they werent totally useless as a military force.

And they barely did that. The Syrians failed totally in doing so.

The Israelis had a strong will to fight too. When you are defending your nation against total destruction... Well... Running from battle doesnt look like a working solution.

Israelis were not defending from total destruction, the majority of atrocities were commited by Israeli Jews not Arabs, Arabs wanted to basically round Jews up put them on ships and make them GTFO from the land they occupied.

Of course later Jews and their pet media branches did everything to villify their neighbours, statements like "we'll make them board ships, we'll give them more but they need to get out" were remade into "we'll drive them all into the sea."

Also Jews were defending their stolen loot, because the land and property they held was never for a second theirs it belonged to the Arab people, praising a thief because he overpowered his victim is hardly praisworthy is it?

 

[LeMask]

PanzerCracker, what I meant is that If the Israelis lose a war against the Arabs... Israel will disappear. It will be replaced by some different state.

They cant destroy the whole territory and sink it into the sea of course... Never meant that.

But will there be slaughters, an ethnic cleansing? I dont believe so. But there will be strong reprisals against some people... that's for sure.

And in the minds of the Israelis, the ghost of mass slaughters is very present... There is a huge culture of fear of antisemitism... And it helps in a fight.

If you think that the enemy will kill you and then attack your people... You wont want to drop your gun and run for your life...

And here, you are talking about the legitimacy of the Jews in this part of the planet...

And first things first. To be fair. There was Jews on these lands... Even before Israel (the new one). It wouldnt be fair at all to send these people to Europe. They never left the holy lands.

And then, there is the Jews who came from all over the world to be Israelis. We can discuss their legitimacy on these lands... But it was a long time ago.

Now, they have their lives on these lands. They have children who were born in these lands. Is it right to throw them out? Of course not.

Now, the solution to the Israeli problem is pretty simple. A strict application of the law and of democracy.

First, you give people rights. First equality. Men are equals, whatever their origin or their force (military force), level of education and wealth.

This will protect the Arabs today, but it will also protect all mankind in the future, the Jews too.

As we dont have answers for who is religiously legitimate... We cant speak to god after all. All religious beliefs have to be equal too. And it means free access to holy sites for all the religious communities.

And the main problem is how to get past all the atrocities of this war?

One simple thing. Justice. Let's sue all the wrong doers. Terrorists in jails. War criminals in jail. Religious extremists under intelligence and police supervision (and even jail)...

And all of this programm would cost less than a war...

But why it's not happening? because we dont like democracy. We dont want to be equals. We want privileges. We want domination.

So we have to force this democracy... Starting in our neighborhoods. And then, the rest of the world...

What happens in Israel happens all over the world. It's corruption and lack of democracy and human right abuses...

It happens between Europe and Africa, between Rich and poors in the third world and in the world in general, between the US and Mexico... etc etc...

Same **** everywhere...

 

[Panzercracker]

PanzerCracker, what I meant is that If the Israelis lose a war against the Arabs... Israel will disappear. It will be replaced by some different state.

Yes but thats a bit different then destroying the nation, Arabs during Yom Kippur wanted to terminate the Israeli state and expel Jews they saw as foreign invaders, there were no concentration camps or wholesale genocide planned once they won, just pack the people onto the ships and off they go.

 

[LeMask]

Seems logic coming from them, as they dont recognize the state. They just recognize that some guys with guns settled in the area and kicked people out of their rightful homes.

 

[master]

It was known wide that the isaeli army is the army that cannt be defeated and it was said by all and specially the isaelies themseves . but this quote was put down and denied during the war in 6 hours .