Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS) - Page 24




 
--
Boots
 
December 5th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
This is where I think you have missed the point, certainly support for Israel plays a part but not a great one even the Palestinian opinion on the matter indicate that it so much about being supportive of Israel but that you are actively supporting Israeli actions that are displacing and killing Palestinians on a daily basis and protecting them at the international level while they do it.

The part I think you have completely failed to understand is "Allies of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Jordan etc." because you are assuming that being allied to the governments of these countries makes you allied to the people of those countries but missed the part where those governments are not all that popular with their own people who see them as little more than oppressive dictatorships.

Surely it is not all that hard to understand why you are not safe outside your borders when the people of these nations see you as supporting and maintaining their oppressors.

I think your rather black and white view is also indicated by your comments that I am "anti-American" yet I can honestly say I haven't met an American I didn't like but I find your governments foreign policy to be appalling.
Let me ask you with the young and more educated Iranians do you really believe they support the religious terrorist government that has ruled with an Iron hand for > 30 years. Where basic freedoms are nonexistence.

Also how many Saudi's have you spoken to? I have known quote a few both in Academia and in the military setting and they were very proud of their country and happy with their government.

Do remember that our government has done more to help people providing more aid and relief to people in mneed than any other nation on the planet.
December 5th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Let me ask you with the young and more educated Iranians do you really believe they support the religious terrorist government that has ruled with an Iron hand for > 30 years. Where basic freedoms are nonexistence.
I have no idea what I do know is that much like the USA who's government I dislike, it is not up to me to tell people how they should be governed.

As much as I may not like some of Iran's practices it is up to the Iranian people to determine what they will and wont accept and if they are "content" then that is fine with me and if I ever get to go there I will do what I do in every other country and stay within their rules.

Quote:
Also how many Saudi's have you spoken to? I have known quote a few both in Academia and in the military setting and they were very proud of their country and happy with their government.
But surely you accept that those who have prospered within a system are more likely to be positive about that system than those who haven't.

I could easily say the same thing about all of the Iranians I have met as they have almost all been well educated people from government departments but logic tells me that they are not necessarily a good cross section of the countries people.

Quote:
Do remember that our government has done more to help people providing more aid and relief to people in mneed than any other nation on the planet.
Do you remember that your government has also supported more misery, oppression and corruption in the name of ideology than any other nation on the planet as well.
Lets face it who was it that put the Shah of Iran in power or enacted coups in South and Central America that lead to murderous dictatorships do honestly think that a bag of rice and a few Burger King outlets is enough wash away the implementation, arming and funding of governments that slaughtered their own people by the hundreds of thousands.

Why do you think after that Iranians, Palestinians, South Americans or Iraqi's to name a few would even tolerate you after the mess and misery your government has inflicted on them in your name over the past 70 years yet strangely enough the vast majority of them still bear you no ill will.

Worst of all the entire western world has simply sat by shrugged, let it happen and consoled itself with the idea of "better dead than red" so really is it that hard to understand how the likes of ISIS come about?
December 5th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
But surely you accept that those who have prospered within a system are more likely to be positive about that system than those who haven't.
You are presumptuous. Talking to the people vs. what you think - read and assumed are 2 different things. I go with the real thing when it comes from a good cross section of individuals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Do you remember that your government has also supported more misery, oppression and corruption in the name of ideology than any other nation on the planet as well.
Lets face it who was it that put the Shah of Iran in power or enacted coups in South and Central America that lead to murderous dictatorships do honestly think that a bag of rice and a few Burger King outlets is enough wash away the implementation, arming and funding of governments that slaughtered their own people by the hundreds of thousands.
Iím sure your anti-American tirade could go on forever. We went thru this debate just a short while back. To avoid senseless repetition I will simply state Your words speak for themselves and require no counter argument they are completely one-sided and ludicrous. A bag of rice ďreallyĒ.
--
Boots
December 5th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
I’m sure your anti-American tirade could go on forever. We went thru this debate just a short while back. To avoid senseless repetition I will simply state Your words speak for themselves and require no counter argument they are completely one-sided and ludicrous. A bag of rice “really”.

Ah yes the if you dont agree i'm great you are "Anti-American" fall back position, if you want to delude yourself that the reason people don't like you is purely because they hate your "freedoms" then go right ahead but as long as you refuse to face up to what is done in your name then don't expect things to change.

You are saying you think that installing and supporting despotic regimes that are responsible for the deaths of peoples families and the destruction of their lives can be countered with money?

I have news for you and it is all bad, time to remove your head from the sand and look at an over all picture, at best I would say you are naive at worst willfully ignorant of how people react to your (aka your governments) actions.
December 6th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Ah yes the if you dont agree i'm great you are "Anti-American" fall back position, if you want to delude yourself that the reason people don't like you is purely because they hate your "freedoms" then go right ahead but as long as you refuse to face up to what is done in your name then don't expect things to change.

You are saying you think that installing and supporting despotic regimes that are responsible for the deaths of peoples families and the destruction of their lives can be countered with money?

I have news for you and it is all bad, time to remove your head from the sand and look at an over all picture, at best I would say you are naive at worst willfully ignorant of how people react to your (aka your governments) actions.
No this is you putting your words in my mouth. If you recall I never claimed the history of our great nation to be blameless. Itís that you have a passion for exaggeration concerning any negative aspect of our great nations history. It is you who fail to see the total viewpoint and instead focus on the partial viewpoint. I.e.: anything and everything negative about our great nationís history and foreign affairs.

You criticize the Shaw of Iran, but embrace the Ayatollahs who were at least as murderous as the Shaw ever was. You embrace the so called red revolutions saying where the US helped to install these murderous governments to counter these leftist. How many millions died Ė killed by N Korea. How many more would have died if they got their murderous hands on the south. How many were killed by the Columbian guerillas in their reign of terror. What about Grenada, Haiti, west and central Africa. At least the US tried in Somali what did New Zealand do? Have you no sense of balance man.
December 6th, 2015  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
1st off Turkey has 3 branches of government that are all elected.

The people of Egypt supported the military in a big way when they replaced the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood organization. Better to have safety of a military government then a democratically elected government that lied and turned on it's own people.

I do believe your argument for a 3rd world war is very weak. You are merely stating some facts interlaced mostly with your opinions and calling it a world war.

In the US way over 10% of the population is Hispanic's some of these are gang members, drug dealers and gun runners. Many live in ghetto's. Do we lump them all together as an enemy of the USA, ridiculous. This sounds like what you are proposing for immigrant Muslims. BTW I do support screening the potential immigrants for potential terrorist.

This is exactly what the Nazi's did to the Jews , Gypsies and Slavs murdering > 20 million of them in less than 6 years. They were labeled as enemies to the state. Are you proposing a modern repeat? Nonsense such crimes most never be repeated!
About immigration , I know that a lot of Americans are sticking to the claim (better: illusion) that immigration is good,but they are blamed by what is happening :if 10000 Hispanics are immigrating, they will adapt to the autochtones, but when millions of Hispanics are coming ?

The Latinisation of the US is a deadly danger for its survival:what will happen in 2076 when states as California,Arizona, New Mexico,etc, will have a Hispanic majority which will consider it self no longer as Americans, but as Mexicans,and will secede ?


About the Muslims : history is teaching us that they will not adapt to non Muslims (some times ago a leader of the Texan Muslims said that they were above the American law and that they were bound only by the Islam law ).

The mass migration from the South (and especially from the Muslims) is a deadly danger for the West .It is a colonisation .

The ideals of the Islam and of the West are incompatible .Thus,we should not accept the idea that Muslim immigration is good for Europe, is good for the US .

The average Muslim is hostile to the West,he hates us, thus,his place is not amongst us .
December 6th, 2015  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Ah yes the if you dont agree i'm great you are "Anti-American" fall back position, if you want to delude yourself that the reason people don't like you is purely because they hate your "freedoms" then go right ahead but as long as you refuse to face up to what is done in your name then don't expect things to change.

You are saying you think that installing and supporting despotic regimes that are responsible for the deaths of peoples families and the destruction of their lives can be countered with money?

I have news for you and it is all bad, time to remove your head from the sand and look at an over all picture, at best I would say you are naive at worst willfully ignorant of how people react to your (aka your governments) actions.
Of course,the Third World is hostile to freedom and liberty;only naive Americans think that the whole world is longing for what the Founding Fathers worked out, invented .

Most of people in the world are satisfied with despotic regimes .Those living in Iraq, Libya,Syria, the SU ,Germany, North Korea, were/are satisfied with the ruling despotes.They would laugh when Patrick Henry would say : give me liberty or give me death .
December 6th, 2015  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Let me ask you with the young and more educated Iranians do you really believe they support the religious terrorist government that has ruled with an Iron hand for > 30 years. Where basic freedoms are nonexistence.
There are no such things as basic freedoms in the ME : the Iranians were satisfied with the Shah,now they are satisfied with the Ayatollahs:they don't want basic freedoms, they prefer material progress .
December 6th, 2015  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
1st off Turkey has 3 branches of government that are all elected.
This is not correct : most Turkish judges are appointed,besides, even in the US a lot of judges are appointed = federal judges .

It is also irrelevant : in the Third Reich,parliament also was elected,and no one will use this as a proof that the Third Reich was democratic .

In Belgium judges are appointed,which is not a proof that Belgium is not democratic (not that I am saying that Belgium is democratic )
December 6th, 2015  
brinktk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
There are no such things as basic freedoms in the ME : the Iranians were satisfied with the Shah,now they are satisfied with the Ayatollahs:they don't want basic freedoms, they prefer material progress .
How do you know?

How can you speak for 50 million people?
 


Similar Topics
Syrian Kurds battle Islamic State in northeast
U.S. fears Islamic State is making serious inroads in Libya
Islamic State says it's holding 'Israeli spy' in Syria
Iranian Phantom jet strikes the Islamic State in Iraq - IHS Jane's 360
Islamic State says executes second Lebanese soldier